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#439298 - 12/01/07 02:20 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Gary:
I never take you wrong, I like you and I know your a sincere guy by the way and things you write about.
As for why I believe what I say about backing is from my observation over the years from blinds. I have spent countless hours sitting in blinds, blinds made for deer hunting, blinds made for animal research and mostly blinds constructed for my wife's wildlife photography business which we have sat in for days on end over years.
For example, just to kill two birds with one stone so to speak, I never deer hunt from a blind without making sets in every direction that I can watch through my 3X to 9X scope. I make sets in the open, set backed against large trees, sets up against windfalls, etc. Every time I see a red fox, grey fox or coyote coming into view I watch them as they pick up the lure odor and work the set. When a set is made out in the open where the animal can see clearly around they generally stop, look around, sometimes even stand on their hind legs for a better view and generally within a half minute or so of looking in every direction they make a direct approach right into the set without hesitation and work the hole if its a mock set or bingo if its a real set. Sets made where viewing 360 degrees is impossible generally get a different approach. Many canines both red fox and coyote especially appear nervous, jittery, looking around over and over, many time going to higher ground to look over the who area, circleing around the obstruction sometimes disapearing for long periods of time befor re-emerging from a different direction, lying down and hiding in the vegetation, etc. Instead of making a straight on approach to the set they fidget around the set stepping in from the sides, tracking around in front of the set etc, rather than stepping on the desired spot on the pan like they generally do when they are more comfortable with the situation. Some get so nervous after fidgeting around the set they just plain disapear and are never seen again. This same scenario is true with sets made clean or sets made without care, the cleaner of odors both human and foreign the set and set area the more positive and quicker approach. I could go on for hours about all of the scenarios I have observed from blinds. Every single animal is more comfortable with sets made out in the open, even the lowly coon and easy to trap bobcat make better approaches. Even black bear, king of the North woods were reluctant to get themselves in a corner, especially if they were smaller than the other bear in the area. Ace

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#439314 - 12/01/07 02:37 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Wright Brothers Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 799
Loc: Pa
That last sentence caught my eye and made me think.

Could this be a tactic to catch the alpha first?

I know, I'm thinking too much again.

Good read guys.
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#439316 - 12/01/07 02:41 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
thanx for the reply ... i dont have as many years under my belt as you do ... nor the amount of animals .... but i have watched animals work sets as well as natural diggings, logs, scent marks, etc ... i too have seen em fidgit alot .... stand on hind legs ... and refuse diff things ... like there is an imaginary wall between them and objects ... BUT ... i have also seen these same animals scent mark and im sure they made a return visit .... do you think the time of day they were seen has alot to do with it ?? i have seen fox walkin hollows early in the mornin (im sure they were goin to bed) and have called them within a couple feet ... move my hands in the leaves to focus their attention ... have them growl, bark, hiss, etc and not come any closer .... only to walk away ... hop onto stumps, logs,rocks, etc and stare for a good period of time .... get tired of the game .... hop off ....scent mark and walk off ...... again .. i have a feeling that when they awoke they more than likely returned to check that spot out .... im not sure why they didnt close the couple foot gap ... unless the funny lookin lump of brush (myself in camo) had them on alert ... BUT if they recognized me as a threat i wouldnt think they would have gotten that close .... brings back alot of memories typin bout these things .... now im ready to go callin !!! lol
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#439371 - 12/01/07 03:21 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Never thought about the time of day Gary so didn't take that into consideration in my observations.
You brought up another aspect I neglected in the above posting and that is marking the place. Some marked the place and some didn't but thinking hard to recollect about all of the times I have seen this, I think for the most part from my memories the fidgety canines that left the area marked out aways from the set, say 50' to 100' out, not right at the set. Ace

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#439378 - 12/01/07 03:26 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
most of the ones i have seen mark were fairly close to the interest area .... 30' and in .... but not right up on top of it .... i have seen em say ....walk from the point of interest and mark as they got on a trail, left the woodlot, loggin road, etc .... what is ya reasoning behind the ones ya observed markin so far out ??
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#439386 - 12/01/07 03:31 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Gary: I think the far out ones went out to higher ground, perhaps to overlook the area again on a return visit. Ace

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#439392 - 12/01/07 03:35 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
sumthin to think bout when settin traps ... chances are thats a point of interest in itself ... a common focus that most canines would go to before/after workin the set/sets ya had nearby .... thanx for sharin asa
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#439408 - 12/01/07 03:46 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Thank you Gary! Ace

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#439448 - 12/01/07 04:23 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
"Those are a lot of nice pictures posted by Charles and Gary, thanks! However, with all due respect I don't see any obstructions to view in any one of the pictures, all I see is normal every day set locations, most are set with common sense right in the edge of a field with good visibility in every direction. "

The last time we had this discussion, you definately brought up tall weeds, brush, etc. I then posted a lot of pictures of trapped coyotes and explained farm country trapping and the evil chisel plow that keeps us trapping inside the edges of cover around here. Not trying to get snotty with you, you just can't have it both ways.

The photos posted here are not all that different. Tall weeds just like we were talking earlier.

I beleive one of our forum members, who is a good coyote trapper and a fair minded man, offered to come out to the UP and trap for a bit. I'd like to see that and hear the results.

This type of conversation, along with many others I have been involved with, remind me of the huge catches made over the years by good snaremen in snow country, in thick brush, willows, weeds, plum thickets, sage, etc often using large baits. This is in places all over the country, with varying coyote populations.

Fact is cover is home, cover is safety, cover is the food pantry for a coyote. I do not doubt you have been a coyote observer. I find it interesting though that your observations of cover, high banks, and the coyotes being wary around them are contradicted by many many good coyote trappers actual catching experience. You have said you put sets out at your deer blind areas to observe behavior. Neat idea.

Have you considered that maybe something else is at play here? Your scent perhaps? Are your lures making them wary? I do not personally think so, however when we take a sample of something, or observe something, our own personal feelings and prejudices can lead us to draw conclusions that are skewed. Myself included.

Whenever I hear numbers, no matter who submits them, that animals are reluctant, or quick to do anything, I wonder how those conclusions came about. Without perfect snow tracking conditions, it is impossible to assess animal behavior at sets. We trappers conclude things, and try to figure them out, but only the coyote truly knows. So we can only really look at numbers/production to determine success. We can determine failure, if a coyote is digging at our set, or coming up where we can see tracks in the pattern but not working it all the way, but I see no good way to consistently read walk bys, stand backs, or flat out refusals. These things can occur 2 feet away, or with coyotes 50 yards away if the wind is right. It is just impossible and we can only merely presume to know that this occurred, unless of course we have perfect tracking conditions.

Presumption can be a good thing, as long as it does not close our minds or keep us from exploring other options. I would urge all interested trappers to try Asa's way of doing things. I would also urge them not to close thier minds to other ways of doing things just because they read information on here, that draws conclusions that have a lot of gray area. Wethr you belive it or not Asa, I told Coonhangman the first time he ever rode with me to try all the ways, clean, not so clean, fast/slow, then settle in on what works for him. My advice to him and others like him has always been to take all the info off a place like this, try it, and see what works for them.

I would have alot more regard for the information in these types of discussions, if we did not try to explain away the differences by saying one areas coyotes are so much different than anothers. The coyotes are the same, the differences is in the observers and interpeters of the information.

It can be very damaging for a new trapper to beleive that a coyote "always" or "never" does a certain thing. It can close off a lot of locations and other coyote harvesting methods for them.

I am not a "legend" and never will be, Asa your Dad was and is. However, there are "legends" or guys who trap hundreds of coyotes, who advocate big holes in high banks, etc on a regular basis. I personally will assess ALL information, and keep an open mind. I personally will look at who is harvesting hundreds of coyotes NOW, in our conditions NOW.

We can look at beleifs from the old days and see how they have evolved over the years. The coyotes needs are the same, the trappers beliefs have changed or been disproven. Keep in mind these are beleifs in general, and have nothing to do with any specific trapper.

Can't catch a coyote in a possum remake (or other non targets).
Coyotes fear the smell of disturbed earth.
Fox fear coyote urine.
Coyotes fear human scent.

Those are a few off the top of my head, bet there are plenty more.
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#439458 - 12/01/07 04:32 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: k9.]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Get lost fool, I didn't even finish rreading your negative diatribe! Ace


Edited by Asa Lenon (12/01/07 04:34 PM)

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#439495 - 12/01/07 04:53 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Slim Pedersen Offline
"Trapping Icon' "

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 867
Loc: N. Dakota
interesting thread guys. As most of you may remember, I have been on a crusade to catch coyotes at the stall out locations, rather than right at the sets recently. It has been a very interesting study with some well educated coyotes--admittedly two that I probably educated myself.

I bring all this up, to throw yet another question into the equation: I have noticed that high backing with tall grass, or weeds does not stop smart animals from wanting to push throught the tall vegetations to work sets from rear often enough, (not always because winds were coming from different direction either) and I have also observed that with a high bank, they will attempt to get onto the top of bank and look down onto sets. Yet, I have also noticed that when they do stall out on the first approach, it is usually at some sort of visual curiosity that they seem to investigate with thier nose--seeking to gain more possible information about things.
I have taken several well educated animals with nothing more than one small bird feather, no lure, nothing else near, just a likely looking stopping area with tiny feather to direct animal, so that I can assure proper trap location where they may step.

I throw all this out to both question the differences in tall backings being vegetations vs. something more solid, like a bank, or possibly a trash pile, and to point out that often enough, some distraction or other will often be focal point to cause a stall out location.

There have been some well experienced points made, such as tractors being easily caught but difficult to hold, and with this line of reasoning, I honestly believe that Each and Every single location must stand on it's own often enough, and a trapper is quite often limited to where he can set at some locations----for this reason alone, it is wise to learn how to use both tall backings and small backings, and lots of experience and observations will be required to understand what can and can not be utilized, and golly gee wiz, the next coyote that comes along will do something different again. Think the constant learning and never ending adaptions by smart animals is what keeps all us trappers in the game---learning forever (even if it is often very frustrating!).
_________________________
Proud to be a trapper and supporter of trapping organizations

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#439511 - 12/01/07 04:57 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Slim Pedersen]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
thanx for adding slim ... was wonderin where ya have been .... spose ya too busy catchin critters !! lol
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#439525 - 12/01/07 05:00 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Slim Pedersen]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Here is an excerpt from one of the best coyote trappers of all times, one might say the Father of coyote trapping East of the Mississippi, Herb Lenon. Please note what he has to say about backings and the set visibility factor:

VISIBILITY & APPEAL
Many times there is no breeze, the breeze is erratic or coming from other than the prevailing direction. Visibility must then be relied upon to make a catch. The most important factor of visibility is the eye appeal of the set. Fox and coyote will normally rear up on their hind legs or go to a higher spot to look around when they see or smell something unusual. They have been seen doing this many times when detecting the odor of test scent that had been placed. Assume the animal is passing a set on a night when there is no breeze or the breeze is erratic. A tiny wisp of wind carries a short, faint odor of lure to it. The animal then rises up on its hind legs to look around. If the set is made at a visible scent post, or a hole set made in very short grass, smooth moss, rotted wood or any place where it is highly visible and appealing, the animal is almost certain to investigate. If the wind is from other than the prevailing direction, your only chance is to have a visible set that is appealing enough for the animal to bother investigating.
There are other advantages to having all sets highly visible except where thieves are an extreme problem. If the animal does its cautious sniffing a distance from the set, it is less likely to detect any possible trap odor. It will then approach directly to the set with very little caution. A direct approach will also make it more likely the animal will step directly on the critical small area of the trap pan. Do not place a set next to a large tree, stump, embankment, or whatever, and no heavy cover should be near the set. This is not as important with fox but extremely important in coyote trapping. Many years of experimentation with animals has proven that a coyote will always take a last look around before lowering its head. If the coyote canít see clearly for at least thirty feet in all directions it becomes nervous and jittery, many times leaving without further investigation. This is a good policy in fox trapping too as experience has taught that some red fox will also shy away. Good luck. Herb Lenon

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#439530 - 12/01/07 05:02 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Slim Pedersen]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
Very well put Slim.
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#439540 - 12/01/07 05:05 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
 Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
Get lost fool, I didn't even finish rreading your negative diatribe! Ace


Please Asa, do not take this thread downhill.
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#439565 - 12/01/07 05:17 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: k9.]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
K9 wrote...Please Asa, do not take this thread downhill.

Do you twist things around so skillfully on the witness stand officer K9, I certainly wouldn't want you testifying against me, what comes from your mouth has forked tongue. And before you get offended that I took a jab at your job lets see what you had to say about my job (I finally read your above diatribe)
K9 wrote about my job..."Have you considered that maybe something else is at play here? Your scent perhaps? Are your lures making them wary?"
Really hitting below the belt aren't 'ya officer K9! I come from a family of a long line of law enforcement officers and NONE of them ever twisted facts, twisted statements, put words in peoples mounth or outright lied. Ace


Edited by Asa Lenon (12/01/07 05:18 PM)

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#439574 - 12/01/07 05:21 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
Keep reading where I say I don't think that's the case. Moderators I am not offended by this so donot feel you need to delete anything.

My point is Asa, all trappers should keep an open mind to be successful, including me and you.
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#439583 - 12/01/07 05:25 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: k9.]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
open minds ..... yup thats what we need .... what works for one person/yote .... maye not work for the other .... adapt to the situation to git-r-done
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#439605 - 12/01/07 05:33 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5946
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
You and I both know K9 exactly what you were trying to accomplish by bringing up lures. Just for the record, I have worked with at least 40 distinctly different lures, some furnished me by some of America's most outstanding trappers and the result was exactly the same with all of them. Now lets go over your statement a second time:
K9 wrote......
"Have you considered that maybe something else is at play here? Your scent perhaps? Are your lures making them wary?"

Now why in blank would coyotes always accept sets out in the open and more often not commit to sets with large backings when the same lures were used over and over and over in years of testing? Please tell me how lures could possibly come into play here? You know as well as myself and every intelligent trapper on here can clearly see you sent up a combination smoke screen, twisted the subject and managed to get in a blow below the belt all at the same time. Very skillful I must say but not what one might expect from an officer of the law. I have even had trappers e-mail me sharing the same setiments about your questioable character. Ace


Edited by Asa Lenon (12/01/07 05:40 PM)

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#439702 - 12/01/07 06:23 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ]
pass-thru Online   content
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1554
Loc: Va
Thank you gentleman, for the informative discussion.

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