I fugured this question might have been better answered on the Wilderness Forum , so that is why I am posting it here.

If a Coyote has been DNA tested and the test comes back to show that genetically(SP?) it's DNA makeup is 89 % Wolf DNA, and 11 % Coyote DNA, what is it proper to call that animal? It is not a "pure Coyote" in the true sense of the word, yet it is not a true Wolf.

If your mystery critter only shares 11% of the entire sequence with a wolf, it's probably a fern (perhaps dogwood?). It sure isn't a vertebrate of any sort.

First guess: 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and that's one of them.

Neither coyotes nor wolves have had complete nuclear sequences mapped, so direct meaningful comparisons are not possible.

There are lots of smaller useful "bits" for both of them. The most useful for identification does not exist for any canid yet.

So, where did this come from? What do those numbers mean?

Wow Dusty, just wow...

- Clint

It does not like like you killed any brain cells during "miller time" after you flight last night, thats for sure.

Here is the PDF link to the article: It's about 58 pages in length.

http://www.ualberta.ca/~smmullen/COYOTEGENETICSREPORT.pdf

Ahhh - that makes sense now. Paul Wilson is the Algonquin wolf guy. He's a heck of a smart guy that's totally willing to sacrifice science for his cause - getting "eastern wolves" (which, if they exist, happen to be indistinguishable from coyotes) recognized as an official species by USFWS, and listed under ESA.

Notice that his outgroup of "western" coyotes are all from areas near red wolf reintroductions. I'd be hard pressed to consider NC "western."

He picked seemingly random animals as pre-determinate "eastern wolves" - those from Algonquin Park are wolves, those from outside are not, according to the paper.

I can't comment intelligently on the morphometric work, but I'd expect coyotes - about the most plastic mammalian species on the planet - to vary widely based solely on diet.

Notice that he considers agricultural lands and urban areas barriers to movement. I wonder if the farmland coyote trappers and dumpster-dumpers in LA would agree?

I'd like to see something similar to Appendix 1 for the rest of his animals - I wonder if STRUCTURE (which I've never heard of, much less used) thinks wolves are 100% wolf ancestry, and his "western coyotes" are 100% coyote ancestry using the same criteria he used to label his Maine coyotes? I'm guessing those data would be in the paper if it did. Whatever it's doing, it isn't anything like a whole-genome comparison. As a matter of fact, I don't even see what it is that he sequenced, and it looks as if he didn't archive his sequences.

Some of his earlier work made a point of stating that eastern coyotes had no dog genes. Canid taxonomy was revised to submerge dogs and wolves into a single species a few years ago. Seems to me that 1) the revision, although widely accepted by the scientific community, must be wrong, or 2) he's selectively interpreting his data to suggest pre-determined outcomes. I see no alternatives.

He might be on to something - I certainly don't have the expertise to tell, but I do have my doubts. He has a cause, and he's doing everything in his power to further that cause - I'd say, at the expense of professional ethics.

OK, I think I'll climb down off my soapbox and have another beer....

Have'nt seen anyone talk like that since College science class! LOL. Anyways, back to my original question:

Hypothetically speaking, if there was a DNA test that could diferentiate between species & If you have a Coyote that says the DNA makeup of the Coyote is 89 % wolf and 11 % Coyote, Should the animal still be classified as a Coyote? I an of the opinion that it would no longer be considered a Coyote , but a Wolf or more precisely, a Coywolf.

Canvasback i think you got your answer Dusty covered it well you asked and he explained we prefer not to be so hypothetical but use real science or encourage it up here. You cannot really calssify it in percentages since neither animal has had their complete nuclear sequence mapped

If you kill a feral wolf/dog hybrid in Alaska, is it a wolf or is the sale of the skin prohibited under that new law that makes it a crime to sell furs of "companion" animals. Oops, did I just open a new can of worms?

Wolves kill coyotes here.... No chance of there being a Coywolf as Coyotes are food here! If you see coyote sign in Alaska chances are you won't find wolf sign.... Just my experience!

- Clint

Maybe the border between units 17 and 19 are the exception then, I've seen both in the same day.

newhouse is right we have them both here however the yotes are very quiet and few and far between i have never heard them howl like down the states. I have caught yotes and wolves on the same big bait and I have had fox in traps trashed by wolves within a few miles of that same set

Newhouse114 : Don't know the answer on the wolf/dog hybrid sale . But coyotes often live in the same areas as wolves . However, they don't seem to call as much as their down south cousins , presumably because they will attract a wolf. The same goes for black and brown bears. In south East, you will sometimes see them on the same beach, but they give each other a wide berth. If not, it can go badly for the black bear, as it would for the coyote.

There are a fair number of coyotes in a lot of the country I used to trap, along with wolves. Like otterman said, I think the (surviving) coyotes are pretty good at laying low.

114: someone with a good lawyer is going to open that wormcan someday. Under the Endangered Species Act, since dogs and wolves have been demoted to subspecies of Canis lupus, your Pekinese is technically just as much a wolf as that big smelly thing with a belly full of moosemeat in your snare. I'm surprised that HSUS hasn't figured out how to exploit that little technicality yet. Someday they will, and USFWS will spend a bunch of your money keeping the court system from "protecting" poodles.

OK, let's get hypothetical.

First problem: what's a species? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/species thinks it's:



Hmmm, that doesn't really work for Canis. Coyotes, gray wolves/dogs, red wolves, and at least seven flavors of jackal all interbreed and produce fertile offspring. From that, it should be evident that they already share most of their DNA.

That is, of course, incomplete, and that incompleteness is recognized by the scientific community. Politicians aren't so good at dealing with the ambiguity.

The most promising DNA species identification test is (unfortunately) called BARCODE. It compares a tiny (648, out of a couple billion in most critters) proportion of base pairs - it is NOT a way to say "this critter is x% that critter." It will be interesting to see what happens when wolves and coyotes are barcoded - I suspect they'll be indistinguishable.

DNA sequences are just that - the SEQUENCE of four "bases" that comprise the string, which consists of somewhere between several thousand and a few billion bases. Certain parts of that sequence - mostly derived from mitochondria (which aren't actually "yours" at all - they're symbiotic bacteria, more or less) because they're exceedingly plentiful and therefore easy to sequence - are informative about certain characteristics. It's up to the individual researcher to select the "correct" sequence to investigate any given problem. Pick the wrong one and you'll see no variation within a "species" because they mutate very slowly. Pick a region that evolves rapidly and you'll see huge variations - even among siblings. So, without knowing what was sequenced by Wilson, it's impossible to derive anything meaningful from his data.

Short version: "Species" is ambiguous at best, particularly when applied to canids. Interpreting genetic data isn't a trivial exercise. You are attempting to trivialize a complicated technique as it's applied to an even more complicated question. There isn't enough data given - by you or Wilson - to come up with a solid answer.

Disregarding all that, if you produced the animal described and the data described, I could only come to the conclusion that the concept of two "species" is flawed in the first place (they've obviously been interbreeding for several generations to come up with that proportion), as was recently done with dogs and wolves. Botanists deal with this by "named hybrids," stable intermediate forms that don't really work as either species. Mammalogists (and politicians) don't have a system in place to deal with that.

There is no solid defensible answer to what you're asking. Blindly believe what Wilson wrote, or do a little research and make up your own mind.

Haha, as far as selling these up here goes though; as long as it looks like a wolf and doesn't have a collar mark I doubt you are going to get trouble from anyone.

Dusty, my comment was made a bit "tongue in cheek". I am aware of the ambiguities and complete guess work involved in taxonomy. I believe from your posts that we have had the same post secondary educational background. I have never heard of coyotes crossing with wolves, nor have I heard of (doesn't mean it hasn't happened) an F2 generation involving coyote/dog hybrids. I don't live in Alaska presently but did reside there for 30 years, along with a wildlife biology background, I am a registered guide in Alaska and have hunted from Prince William Sound to North Pole, to Bethel and most points in between so I have had the oportunity to observe a huge variance in population diversity in different geographical area of the state. I have never actually worked as a biologist due to my disillusionment with how wildlife is actually managed. When lawyers and courts have a greater say than biology.........well, you get my point. Also, a non-government individual has a much louder voice than a state employee trying to preserve his job.

Uh-huu. Stop by the bar in Talkeetna some night - there's a sled dog on the wall. I've seen a couple "wolves" sold that looked a heck of a lot more like Fluffy than wolf. As long as the rubbing isn't too bad, you can make a few extra bucks by selling the harnesses.....

114 - scary - that's WAY too familiar....

There are a couple wolf/coyote crosses documented (meaning, the skulls and tissue samples are in the Museum and available for reanalysis) in the wild, so they apparently DO get lonely every now and then. There are lots of coyote/dog hybrids documented, and as dogs ARE wolves.....

Dont know if any of you have actually had hands on experence with these so called Coyotes down in Maine but I can tell you that they are weird............. their ears are too short they can weigh up to 75lbs and have toooooo wide a snout, they hunt deer in packs, when the crust is just right, and sound 1/2 way between a normal coyote and a Mulchatna Wolf............... to anyone that is used to seeing Western Coyotes they will make you scratch your head.......... I used to hunt the [I'madork] outta wolves out on the backside of the Alaska Range and it was common to see Coyotes flying accross the Susitna River up by Hays River and go around the corner in Ptarmigain Pass and hit wolves running ahead of you but I can assure you that I NEVER saw any Coyotes in Alaska or anywhere else that look or act like these things here in Maine???? I belive that it is a recorded fact that they are breeding 1/2 way between the normal Coyote time and a Wolves breeding period. But thats just my 2 cents worth.......

for that matter the coyotes in upstate ny are the same, as they hunt in packs, are large, over 60+ lbs.
But, being in a geographic location with limited genes, tends to produce animals with specific traits, such as size, color..
you can't compare a whitetailed deer from maine to one in florida, size is different, color, breeding season, antler size & growth. or the (alces alces gigas) even, alaska to maine comaprison..

Take a look at this one. I remmeber reading about the DNA results. They interesting but I cant remember the particulars.