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#3702814 - 03/14/13 07:28 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: PAskinner]
HobbieTrapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/08
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: PAskinner
Originally Posted By: ThumbStateTrappr
Tell me the definition of a day. As quoted in the bible? (in a time period)

As He is all powerful, why would a day be billions or even trillions of years, when He could do it in a single instant. Did His supplier run low? Come on. This is what I speak of when you argue against yourself.


The bible was written by man, the day was understood by man as a 24 hr. period. It took 6 days to create the Earth, He rested on the 7th. Why did it take 40 days to flood the planet? These are contradictions that don't make sense.


I actually agree with you here, in part. God could do it in a second, or a trillion years, he didn't need 6 days, but the text reads six days and the word used means a actual solar day. The people that try to squeeze billions of years into Genesis, well meaning as they are, seem to miss the point that if they can re-interpret the first chapter of the Bible, any of it can be re-interpreted, and then they wonder why non-believers call them inconsistent.

So, yes, you can believe in the big bang, evolution, blah, blah. blah, and still be a Christian, but it's a hard sell when you also claim to believe in the authority of the Word.
You don't see any Christians saying. "Hmmm, now, what does it mean that Jesus was three days in the tomb? Are those actual days or billions of years." See how absurd it sounds when you apply it to other parts of the Bible?


Wait a second, which is it? Written with divine guidance or was man allowed to put his opinion and perception in it?

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#3702849 - 03/14/13 07:42 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
Trapper Shrek Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/31/11
Loc: Siren, WI
Still waiting for the excuse for my earlier question.

If god created the earth and everything the comes with it, Why did he create volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like?
There is no need for them and all they do is bring death and destruction.

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#3702855 - 03/14/13 07:44 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: muddyriverdogz]
Dave Plueger Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/10/07
Loc: Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
Originally Posted By: muddyriverdogz
Originally Posted By: Dave Plueger
TST, of course anyone who chooses the beast is foolish, of which they will realize on judgment day. By than its too late to change things though.


I bet the people that choose not to believe in God choose not to believe in the "beast" equaly.


I said nothing of belief, simply chose.

Those who do not accept Christ as their savior have chosen the beast, whether it be knowingly or not. There is no in between, only light, or darkness.

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#3702856 - 03/14/13 07:44 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
PAskinner Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/27/10
Loc: PA
My point exactly, Hobbie. If you believe it, why not believe it all? But,

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

There are plenty of theologians who do buy into all the current beliefs about our origins. It's not a salvation issue. But, it may be one of the reasons so many kids are leaving the faith after high school. They see the inconsistency in their churches saying you can re-interpret Genesis as long as you get the part about Jesus right.
_________________________
“When did we allow evil to become stronger than us?”

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#3702864 - 03/14/13 07:47 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Trapper Shrek]
Dave Plueger Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/10/07
Loc: Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
Originally Posted By: Trapper Shrek
Still waiting for the excuse for my earlier question.

If god created the earth and everything the comes with it, Why did he create volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like?
There is no need for them and all they do is bring death and destruction.


Read the very beginning of Geneses. Paradise ended with that first sin.

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#3702869 - 03/14/13 07:48 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Trapper Shrek]
PAskinner Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/27/10
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Trapper Shrek
Still waiting for the excuse for my earlier question.

If god created the earth and everything the comes with it, Why did he create volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like?
There is no need for them and all they do is bring death and destruction.


We covered that. Creation was perfect in the beginning, no volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like.

Romans 8
.19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
_________________________
“When did we allow evil to become stronger than us?”

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#3702871 - 03/14/13 07:49 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Dave Plueger]
Trapper Shrek Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/31/11
Loc: Siren, WI
Originally Posted By: Dave Plueger
Originally Posted By: Trapper Shrek
Still waiting for the excuse for my earlier question.

If god created the earth and everything the comes with it, Why did he create volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like?
There is no need for them and all they do is bring death and destruction.


Read the very beginning of Geneses. Paradise ended with that first sin.


Sorry not going to read it, But that dont make sense as god is loving of his children and why would he murder a whole bunch of innocent people?

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#3702902 - 03/14/13 08:02 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
Part Time
Unregistered

Who was innocent?

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#3702912 - 03/14/13 08:05 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: ]
Trapper Shrek Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/31/11
Loc: Siren, WI
Originally Posted By: Part Time
Who was innocent?


Millions and millions of people that have been killed in natural disasters.

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#3702926 - 03/14/13 08:09 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
Dave Plueger Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/10/07
Loc: Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
You don't get it...Because of that first sin NO ONE IS INNOCENT.

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#3703010 - 03/14/13 08:30 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Dave Plueger]
c hartman Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/05/07
Loc: pellston mi
Originally Posted By: Dave Plueger
You don't get it...Because of that first sin NO ONE IS INNOCENT.



What about those that are born retarded and cannot grasp the concept of god ,jesus and salvation? What about those that are aborted (life begians with conception)
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#3703038 - 03/14/13 08:36 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Trapper Shrek]
Last Frontier Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/20/13
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Trapper Shrek
Originally Posted By: Dave Plueger
[quote=Trapper Shrek]Still waiting for the excuse for my earlier question.

If god created the earth and everything the comes with it, Why did he create volcanos, earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and the like?
There is no need for them and all they do is bring death and destruction.



Sorry not going to read it, But that dont make sense as god is loving of his children and why would he murder a whole bunch of innocent people?


I will answer that for you.

Most Christians would say that everything was fine until Adam sinned. That sin referred to as "original sin" is responsible for everything from earthquakes to my less then perfect eyesight. Because of original sin we are all damned to heck. Everyone is an evil sinner and thus deserving of heck. Lucky for you Jesus payed the price for your sins and all you have to do is.... Well at this point it depends and who you talk to but most folks would say you can be saved by excepting Christ as your Savior. So no one is innocent, at least the is the orthodox Christian view.

This is why I believe that Christianity is an anti-human religion. To quote Hitchens, "Created sick and commanded to be well."

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#3703077 - 03/14/13 08:46 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
James Offline
"Minka"

Registered: 12/26/06
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Christianity is certainly anti-human. We wouldn't accept a justice system that punishes people for the crimes of their fathers, yet that's exactly what Christians try to sell about their god.

Jim
_________________________
Token forum liberal

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#3703085 - 03/14/13 08:48 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
James Offline
"Minka"

Registered: 12/26/06
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
P.S. -- The "crime" that Christians say we're being punished for is intellectual curiosity. But if not for this very human trait, none of us would be talking here on computers. We'd all be living in caves.

If there is a God responsible for our creation, then He's the one who gave us that trait in the first place. "Created sick and commanded to be well" is a good way to put it.

Jim
_________________________
Token forum liberal

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#3703117 - 03/14/13 09:00 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
James Offline
"Minka"

Registered: 12/26/06
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Here is a good site that demolishes creationist claims. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

For instance, the claim that the Grand Canyon evidences Noah's flood is disposed of this way:

Claim CH581:

The Grand Canyon was created suddenly by the retreating waters of Noah's Flood.
Source:

Austin, Steve, 1995. Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe. Santee, CA: Inst. for Creation Research.
Response:

We know what to expect of a sudden massive flood, namely:
a wide, relatively shallow bed, not a deep, sinuous river channel.
anastamosing channels (i.e., a braided river system), not a single, well-developed channel.
coarse-grained sediments, including boulders and gravel, on the floor of the canyon.
streamlined relict islands.

The Scablands in Washington state were produced by such a flood and show such features (Allen et al. 1986; Baker 1978; Bretz 1969; Waitt 1985). Such features are also seen on Mars at Kasei Vallis and Ares Vallis (Baker 1978; NASA Quest n.d.). They do not appear in the Grand Canyon. Compare relief maps of the two areas to see for yourself.

The same flood that was supposed to carve the Grand Canyon was also supposed to lay down the miles of sediment (and a few lava flows) from which the canyon is carved. A single flood cannot do both. Creationists claim that the year of the Flood included several geological events, but that still stretches credulity.

The Grand Canyon contains some major meanders. Upstream of the Grand Canyon, the San Juan River (around Gooseneck State Park, southeast Utah) has some of the most extreme meandering imaginable. The canyon is 1,000 feet high, with the river flowing five miles while progressing one mile as the crow flies (American Southwest n.d.). There is no way a single massive flood could carve this.

Recent flood sediments would be unconsolidated. If the Grand Canyon were carved in unconsolidated sediments, the sides of the canyon would show obvious slumping.

The inner canyon is carved into the strongly metamorphosed sediments of the Vishnu Group, which are separated by an angular unconformity from the overlying sedimentary rocks, and also in the Zoroaster Granite, which intrudes the Vishnu Group. These rocks, by all accounts, would have been quite hard before the Flood began.

Along the Grand Canyon are tributaries, which are as deep as the Grand Canyon itself. These tributaries are roughly perpendicular to the main canyon. A sudden massive flood would not produce such a pattern.

Sediment from the Colorado River has been shifted northward over the years by movement along the San Andreas and related faults (Winker and Kidwell 1986). Such movement of the delta sediment would not occur if the canyon were carved as a single event.

The lakes that Austin proposed as the source for the carving floodwaters are not large compared with the Grand Canyon itself. The flood would have to remove more material than the floodwaters themselves.

If a brief interlude of rushing water produced the Grand Canyon, there should be many more such canyons. Why are there not other grand canyons surrounding all the margins of all continents?

There is a perfectly satisfactory gradual explanation for the formation of the Grand Canyon that avoids all these problems. Sediments deposited about two billion years ago were metamorphosed and intruded by granite to become today's basement layers. Other sediments were deposited in the late Proterozoic and were subsequently folded, faulted, and eroded. More sediments were deposited in the Paleozoic and Mesozoic, with a period of erosion in between. The Colorado Plateau started rising gradually about seventy million years ago. As it rose, existing rivers deepened, carving through the previous sediments (Harris and Kiver 1985, 273-282).
Links:

Woolf, Jon, 1999. Young-earth creationism and the geology of the Grand Canyon. http://www.jwoolfden.com/gc_intro.html
References:

Allen, J. A. et al., 1986. (see below)
American Southwest, n.d., Mexican Hat. http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/mexican_hat/index.html For photos, see http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/mexican_hat/goose2_l.html and http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/mexican_hat/goose_l.html
Baker, V. R., 1978. The Spokane flood controversy and the Martian outflow channels. Science 202: 1249-1256.
Bretz, J. H., 1969. The Lake Missoula floods and the Channeled Scabland. Journal of Geology 77: 505-543.
NASA Quest, n.d. Mars Team online photo gallery. http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/mars/photos/pathfinder.html; see especially http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/mars/photos/images/marspfsite.gif
Harris, D. V. and E. P. Kiver, 1985. The Geologic Story of the National Parks and Monuments. New York: Wiley.
Waitt, R. B. Jr., 1985. Case for periodic, colossal jökulhlaups from Pleistocene glacial Lake Missoula. Geological Society of America Bulletin 96: 1271-1286.
Winker, C. D., and S. M. Kidwell, 1986. Paleocurrent evidence for lateral displacement of the Pliocene Colorado River delta by the San Andreas fault system, southeastern California. Geology 14: 788-791.
Further Reading:

Allen, J. A., M. Burns and S. C. Sargent, 1986. Cataclysms on the Columbia. Portland, OR: Timber Press.

Beus, S. S. and M. Morales (eds.), 2002. Grand Canyon Geology, 2nd edition. London: Oxford University Press. (technical)

Chronic, Halka, 1983. Roadside Geology of Arizona. Missoula: Mountain Press Publishing.

Elders, Wilfred A., 1998. Bibliolatry in the Grand Canyon. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 18(4) (July/Aug.): 8-15.
_________________________
Token forum liberal

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#3703413 - 03/14/13 11:46 PM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
sbracken Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/12
Loc: Louisville, KY



And the Lord sayeth unto the one-lunged Pope, "Walk not upon thy feet but rideth forth among the faithful upon thy trusty scooter."


Edited by sbracken (03/14/13 11:46 PM)
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2012 Tally

Red Fox -- 1
Raccoons -- 14
Coyotes -- 2
Grinners -- 1

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#3703528 - 03/15/13 04:17 AM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Loc: wyoming
Ok,James,now that is a good one!Now disobediance is called "intellectual curiosity".You cannot be serious.You must not have kids and have no concept of the importance of obediance.Come on , at least be intellectually honest .

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#3703539 - 03/15/13 04:46 AM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
mark81560 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/12/08
Loc: middle wisconsin
well ,ok seeing how you all think its ok for raping our children and for the church to hide it and move the rapists from one congegation to the next to keep people happy.

then lets talk about the next sin in gods eye.money ill bet the church makes as much as our goverment.tax free.

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#3703553 - 03/15/13 05:14 AM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Loc: wyoming
Who would ever condone clvering up such things?Anyone who would commit such acts should be prosecuted,period!Again some of you guys really try to use intellectual dishonesty to prove some point,shameful!

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#3703582 - 03/15/13 06:09 AM Re: Bible Prophecy Being Fulfilled??? [Re: Jack Schimdt]
mark81560 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/12/08
Loc: middle wisconsin
so your saying when they get accused and the church covers it up and moves them to another church to do it again.that puts a bad taste in my mouth for churches.

i believe in god but i condem churches.not just because of the sex scandals.more to do with the money.plus most of the people i know that go to church are anything but christians 6 days of the week.

plus no man should make money preaching gods word.

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