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Alaska Trappers Association

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#3268599 - 08/11/12 02:05 PM Pebble project
mutt Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 8
Loc: wisconsin, manitowoc
How do you guys/girls feel about the peble beach mine? I just got done watching a documentery on PBS about it. I'm sure my state doesn't even relate, but issues here in wisconsin peaked my interest and this was new info to me. Does the area need the economic development? I hope someday to visit and get to see things like I saw in the show for myself. Maybe PBS was a little one sided but it seemed to me that the risk wasn't worth the reward. I'd like to know how people who know more about the topic or actually live in the Bristol Bay area feel about it.


Edited by mutt (08/19/12 03:06 PM)

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#3268686 - 08/11/12 03:24 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
otterman Offline



Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 2397
Loc: SW Alaska
First off it is the Pebble Project there is no beach. Secondly it is a very emotionally charged issue for those of us living in Bristol Bay. I was once a commercial fisherman my son now has a permit and depends on it to support a large portion of his income for his new family. I can not support the project and personally hope it doesn't go forward there is just to much at stake in my opinion.
To any and all who wish to enter into this heated topic please keep it civil
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#3268702 - 08/11/12 03:36 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Alaskan Offline
"AMY SUE"

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 4967
Loc: Gnome, Alaska
I think there is significant risk, and it fars outweighs the reward. But that applies to walking across the street as well. So, if they follow all the regulations, and permit process (which I personally is flawed), then I think they should be allowed to move forward.
_________________________
"Goats pee in the water sheep drink."

Life member: NRA, NTA, AkTA, AkFTA, WiTA, MnTA, MoTA, OrTA

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#3268718 - 08/11/12 03:55 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
otter3006 Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 80
Loc: kodiak alaska
no way should they let this happen . they will kill the golden goose of the resource of the bristol bay. just don t like the ideal of it being the "biggest" or the retaining "lakes". if it were to happen i could see a physical battle ground happening. and it won t be pretty

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#3268724 - 08/11/12 03:58 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14669
Loc: McGrath, AK
I think industry IN GENERAL has a fairly responsible record in Alaska. More so the oil companies than the miners. And yes, the development might be good for the area...it might not too.

The thing I can't get past is how active Alaska is geologically. We have active volcanoes and seismic faults all through the area. I do not believe that a containment system can be designed and built for that area that can guarantee that a leak can't/won't happen and kill all the fish downstream at some point in the future. The mineral wealth might last 50 years but the fish can last thousands.

There are also cultural issues to consider. Lots of new money in small, isolated communities can lead to real problems. Alcohol/drugs mainly. It's already bad enough in rural communities.

But back to the fish issue. Where I live there is a confluence of three rivers. One of them has an old gold mine on it that used mercury 80 years ago or so. There are no salmon in that drainage any longer. There is also a higher incidence of cancer downstream of that mine than upstream. Just saying...it isn't just a simple 'for it/against it' proposition based on the jobs and the money.

I'm in favor of reasonable development. But I hope this one dies a quick death.
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Mean As Nails

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#3268753 - 08/11/12 04:28 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
yukonjeff Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 823
Loc: M.T.V. Alaska
I am all for mining,but this is the wrong place for it, that containment dam will leak at some time in the next 10,000 years I am sure of it.there is just too much at risk.

I would say just let the villages in Bristol bay decide its in their back yard not ours.

I would also bet just like the oil companys... the jobs will mostly be lower 48 and Canadian workers after they hire a few token Alaskans just like they are already doing at Donolin.

and why we want to give the richest gold mine of all time to some Canadian company anyway is beyond me.

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#3269021 - 08/11/12 07:40 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
mutt Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 8
Loc: wisconsin, manitowoc
I felt the risk wasn't worth it after the documentery but didn't want to judge until I knew I had an honest opion from someone who would be living with it everyday. I love to fish, more than anything I do and wouldn't want to see a fantastic fishery and eco system deal with a catastrphic loss. Here were are cleaning up the mess our paper plants have caused over the past 100 years and it's not a small task.
I hope the best for whatever happens, and if you ever need another supporter on your side all you have to do is tell me where to sign up.

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#3269115 - 08/11/12 08:40 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
Never been to Bristol Bay and likely never will..... still I am against the project. W17 is right, they will never build a proper containment system. Look at Faro here in the Yukon..... what a disaster that is turning into. The leaching ponds are now leaking....

Industry in Alaska might have a good record.... but they sure dont in other areas. Wait til they start "fracking" you are going to be told it wont hurt the ground water.......... dont believe it for a second.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3269301 - 08/11/12 10:38 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: yukon254]
rosscoak Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Southeast, AK
I read a story to my son called the wump world it talks about the pollutians that come to the wump world and take all the resources until there is none left. I couldn't help but thinking about throughout project.

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#3269325 - 08/11/12 10:57 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: Alaskan]
Vance in AK Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Kenai, Alaska
Originally Posted By: Alaskan
I think there is significant risk, and it fars outweighs the reward. But that applies to walking across the street as well. So, if they follow all the regulations, and permit process (which I personally is flawed), then I think they should be allowed to move forward.


I have to agree with Alaskan.
I'm an avid fly fisherman & love chasing rainbows. Every fly fishing magazine out there has gobs of anti-Pebble stuff in it. Most of it is presented very inaccurately (like Pebble "beach"). Mining has changed a LOT in the last 100 yrs, including getting rid of free mercury, etc. Can mining & commercial fishing exist in the same drainages? Look at the Copper River for an example. The Kennicot mine was huge, & they have a great commercial fishery downstream. GOOD science & the legal permitting proccess needs to be the deciding factor, not emotions. After all, a lot of greenies & animal rights folks would LOVE to get rid of the comercial fishing industry based on how they "feel" about it.
I'm not saying the Pebble project should go to fruition, just that decisions should be based on science, not emotions, freears, or "not in my back yard".

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#3269425 - 08/12/12 04:13 AM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Aknative Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Fairbanks AK
The Kennicot mine, and the ones in that area, are not the same as would be in Pebble.

Firstly, look at Pebble's history; in the beginning it was a gold mine. That stuck a lot in peoples' craws, so they spun it as a copper mine saying that copper is used in everything that make's todays "Alaskan lifestyle" possible. Now they're saying it will yeild a substantial amount of silver, which is used in catheters that reduce infection.

Secondly, the areas the geology of the areas differ greatly. Kennicot was discovered in the mountains by the big green patch clearly visible on the side of the mountain. The copper was on the surface away from the river, and I believe down stream of the spawning streams. At Pebble, everything is underground in the heart of spawning streams.

I believe there's also chemical reasons naturally present in the mountainous Copper River that neutralized some of the mining process that aren't present in the relatively flat Bristol Bay, but they're escaping me right now.

In a world where salmon fisheries seem to be dwindling anway, we need to do everything we can to staunch the current bleeding and prevent further damage.
_________________________
Rumors of my assimilation have been greatly exaggerated.

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#3269679 - 08/12/12 09:58 AM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Cougartail
Unregistered


I just can't understand why people aren't comfortable with one of the largest proposed toxic waste dumps in the headwaters of one of the greatest fisheries in the world? lol

Only one question needs to be asked.. Would everybody involved in the mining of that area stake all their own personal assets to pay for damages that mine causes? ...and the slimy little weasels all slither away into the grass.

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#3270817 - 08/12/12 11:19 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
jdw2825 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 1182
Loc: Metolius, Oregon
ok some of you know i drill in mines. And some may not. That being said i think this pebble project would NOT be a good thing. The jobs and economy could use it, but I personaly think there would be a way more eco impact that people think. I dont care how great your environmental task force is on site. There are always accidents. All the mines Ive ever worked for are great and care and and and. But Its the one guy who was tired while refueling and fell asleep and spilt 2000 gallons of fuel on the ground. That is a huge impact. And if that got into the water its over folks. Like white said could take thousands of years to fix. With that great of a fishey there, nope. Im not for it. I love my job. I love what I do. But I love the land way more (and sea).

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#3270849 - 08/13/12 12:02 AM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: jdw2825]
mad_mike Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 174
Loc: Podunk, Alaska
I stood behind the Kensington during its permitting process. Despite SEACC touting the total destruction of Berners Bay the development went ahead as advertised. Will there be a major or several/many "minor" impacts during "Special K's" life? I would bet so... After all, one of the biggest challenges is treating water coming out of the site. And no one can control how much water comes from above. Containment ponds will eventually spill over the top. That being said, I cannot support a mine in a fish factory. No Pebble Mine for this kid...

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#3271927 - 08/13/12 06:08 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: jdw2825]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
Originally Posted By: jdw2825
ok some of you know i drill in mines. And some may not. That being said i think this pebble project would NOT be a good thing. The jobs and economy could use it, but I personaly think there would be a way more eco impact that people think. I dont care how great your environmental task force is on site. There are always accidents. All the mines Ive ever worked for are great and care and and and. But Its the one guy who was tired while refueling and fell asleep and spilt 2000 gallons of fuel on the ground. That is a huge impact. And if that got into the water its over folks. Like white said could take thousands of years to fix. With that great of a fishey there, nope. Im not for it. I love my job. I love what I do. But I love the land way more (and sea).


Good point JDW.... My old trap-line was very close to the Can-Tung mine...in the last 10-years they have accidentally spilled thousands of liters of fuel..

When it comes to big business and science I am very skeptical....I have had to many biologist clients that made their living doing feasability studies on projects like this.....in general its not good for their business relationship with the company to say a project shouldnt happen.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3271973 - 08/13/12 06:39 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 260
Loc: Alaska
I think that the science of the matter will rule it out.

I am never a big fan of the NIMBY stuff, and the emotions... No one wants anything in their area, put it somewhere else.

from the oil well on the north slope, to the arctic sea, the coal mine in sutton / chickaloon, natural gas in the inlet, power plants in the valley, the Wantana / susitna dam, people in fairbanks crying about high heating fuel and at the same time wanting to ban wood stoves, et al.


If it was always that way we would digress not progress.

those reasons are why the oil pipeline is running dry, and so are / will the states coffers. Can't drill here, don't drill there, can't put in a bridge, can't hurt a caribou, can't make a noise to scare away a whale et al..

the biggest burn to me is when an economically depressed area is against something, say chickaloon coal. Well, alot of folks are against it and don't want a mine nearby. yet in the next breath they cry about being in an area devoid of jobs and a way to make an income.
_________________________
You can't have a million dollar dream with a minimum wage work ethic
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

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#3272265 - 08/13/12 08:43 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
jdw2825 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 1182
Loc: Metolius, Oregon
Hup I agree to your opinion dont get me wrong. Im all for people gettin back on their feet and economicly liven a decent life. Drill holes every where. imo who cares if a caribou goes around the area, if a whale swims 20 miles away. I dont. But I sure would care if my whole livley hood was that fishery. Of coarse where ever we go and do there will be a eco impact. Unfortunatly some are far greater than others. And The whole 2000 gallon of fuel thing wasnt an analagy. It happened in Canada. And I hate to say it but it was for the same company I work for. Just my two cents. Everyone here has great points of view here on this topic.

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#3272349 - 08/13/12 09:19 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
Where I grew up in the Peace River country of northern BC the oil/gas companies have gone bezerk. Yep there is a lot of good paying jobs....more than anywhere Ive ever been. But those jobs came at a high cost and the locals are just starting to see how high that cost really is......25 years later. Cancer rates are off the charts, the groundwater stinks to high heaven and cant be healthy, barb wire fences dont last 10-years.......

I used to feel like HUP....... not anymore....I took my son by the old reserve near where I grew up. Those Cree were poor but proud people when I knew them.....not anymore....the oil companies bought them out...for millions....they all have huge houses, 4 wheelers, trucks...........they also kill each other for drugs, booze etc...... The towns are no different.... huge crime problems..... plus the wilderness is gone....fish very few.....Progress..... not in my book.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3272493 - 08/13/12 10:41 PM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Jumperzee Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 52
Loc: North Central Idaho
I do environmental planning for a living these days...most of the projects I work on are timber sales, which are much more environmentally benign, but have the same level of opposition...at a smaller and different scale.

I would offer the following advice:

There will need to be an EIS prepared for such a project. Don't shy away from the process. Ask to be inlcuded on the mailing lists. Use your RIGHTS to comment on the proposal. During the scoping phase (not sure if this has happened yet or not). Do NOT submit comments that just say your are opposed (if your are) to the project. NOT helpful. You need to SUGGEST alternatives to be considered. By law, alternatives suggested by the public need to be considered and developed. In order to be considered, comments need to be substantive...again, don't just say "this proposal suks, etc, etc). Cite as much science and past history of similar projcets as you can, including what W17 said above. MAKE the people planning the project respond, they have a legal obligation to do so.

There will be a draft EIS...comment on that. The Agency responsible for developing the proposed actions MUST respond to each comment (as long as it isn't telling them where to shove it...). If they do not, they are in breach of the environmental planning process/laws.

Rest assured, there are numerous envorinmental group who know this process inside and out and use it to their advantage. This project is going to be subject to huge legal challenges, which is why they have assembled the team they have. They are well financed and poising themselves for the inevitable legal battle. If indeed you oppose the project (no judgement...I don't have a dog in the fight) then your best recourse is active citizen involvement...including writing your local Congressmen/Senators. I have seen public outcry reverse and/or detour a project's direction based purely on this. No politician wants to do something against the will of his/her consituency.

Good luck. PM if more questions...

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#3272620 - 08/14/12 01:09 AM Re: Peble beach mine [Re: mutt]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 260
Loc: Alaska
i a not taking a position on the project. either for or against, I just got on a soapbox is all....
_________________________
You can't have a million dollar dream with a minimum wage work ethic
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

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