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Alaska Trappers Association

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#3155811 - 05/11/12 04:03 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Kusko Offline
"Mr. Mayor"

Registered: 12/23/06
Loc: Bethel, AK
Heavier bullet, bigger caliber. I'm going to take my .375 from now on when it comes to brown bears. I shot my bear this fall with a .300 RUM and so did my partner. His bear never bled.
_________________________
"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin." Linus Van Pelt

www.alaskafinandfur.com

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#3155860 - 05/11/12 04:44 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Alaskan]
Cattrax Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/28/06
Loc: Wy
Originally Posted By: Alaskan
I'd just like to point out, everyone likes to make fun of my ability to put lead down range and in a hurry...but when its needed...i'm very practiced up!


LMAO. No ones arguing Alaskan! laugh
_________________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
-- Thomas Jefferson





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#3155877 - 05/11/12 05:18 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Loc: Alaska

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#3155926 - 05/11/12 06:15 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: white17]
Cougartail
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: white17
I take a gun and an extra roll or two to the outhouse when the growlers are still out prowling around.


A situation can turn ugly when not prepared....

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#3155930 - 05/11/12 06:18 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: ]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: Cougartail
Originally Posted By: white17
I take a gun and an extra roll or two to the outhouse when the growlers are still out prowling around.


A situation can turn ugly when not prepared....



You don't need to use all those dots as punctuation. A colon would be adequate.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3155931 - 05/11/12 06:20 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: Cattrax
Originally Posted By: Alaskan
I'd just like to point out, everyone likes to make fun of my ability to put lead down range and in a hurry...but when its needed...i'm very practiced up!


LMAO. No ones arguing Alaskan! laugh



Putting lead downrange is one thing. Hitting the target with it is the objective.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3155963 - 05/11/12 07:07 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Interesting information there about the shock wave thing, Hup. Never seen any study
done on it like you mentioned there, but have often wondered about it. Has to be some
serious hydraulic force going on.

I've got the 7th edition (1977) of the Boone and Crocket records book. Kinda out dated,
but still somewhat relavant.
This edition shows a map that defines the range of grizzly bears and the range of
coastal brown bears for scoring purposes. It has a detailed map, but basically the line follows the boundary between Alaska and Canada, through the Wrangels, along the Alaska
range, then follows the 62nd parallel to the Bering Sea. Anything East and North of that
line is scored as a grizzly, anything West and South is scored as a brown bear.

Minimum score to enter a grizzly is 24.

Minimum score to enter a brown bear is 28.

The largest grizzly on record was a pick up found at Lone Mt, AK in 1976, with a score
of 27 and 13/16. (this number came from B&C's current web page).

The largest brown bear on record was killed in 1952 on Kodiak Island, AK with a score
of 30 13/16. (Also from the current web page).

Of 263 coastal brown bear listed in this particular edition of the record book, All were taken in Alaska (most of them on Kodiak or the AK Pen). The LARGEST grizzly listed is
3/16 smaller than the SMALLEST brown bear listed.

The AK Dept of F&G notebook series claim the adult male coastal brown bear can weigh up to as much as 1,500 lbs. The adult male bears in the interior (grizzlys) can weigh up
to as much as 500 lbs. I'm not sure I totally agree with these numbers, but they have
weighed them many times, while I have never had scales handy to weigh them with.
IMO, they are probably very close on the size of a really big coastal brown, but from
what I've seen I think a really big grizzly would go over the 500lb mark. But even if a big grizzly weighed 750 lbs,(half again as much as they claim) that's still half the size of a really big brown.

At any rate, all the evidence here indicates that there is a considerable difference
in size between the coastal browns and the grizzly. (I have hunted both and have seen that to be the case, but this way you don't have to take my word for it).

With that being the case, I'm of the opinion that the shotgun and the 45-70 is within
reasonable limit's for use on grizzly's. They are also within reasonable limit's for
any coastal brown bear at or under about 800 lbs. But you can take this to the bank,
they are not adaquate for a 1,200 lb or bigger brown bear. I've seen a fair number of them shot that were over 1,000 lbs, with a wide variety of different weapons and rounds.
The difference in body mass between like an 8 1/2 ft bear and a 10 1/2 ft bear is astounding. It's like two different animals.

Encountering a bear of this size does not happen very often. By the time the old boars
get this size they are pretty wise and tend to avoid people. The greatest risk with
them (aside from having to trail a wounded one) is if you walk in unaware on one that is on a kill and he decides to defend it. IMO, that's the deadlest situation you can get into when it comes to bear encounters. If they get to you they won't just maul you. They have the ability to crush your skull in one bite, or rip you in half in the first bite.

Much more often, the encounters are with smaller bears. It would be a huge sow that
would go 800 lbs, I don't know that I have ever seen one that would go that. Anyway, The shotgun with slugs will work on them. So for the most part, those that pack a
shotgun will be OK with it. But with what I have seen and where I'm at, I don't feel
comfortable with one. I would feel comfortable with one in the interior, but would
still prefer to have the 375. To each his own.

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#3156036 - 05/11/12 08:03 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK

This is Bearpaw a few years ago when he was the area biologist here. This bear was being relocated as part of the predator control/moose rehabilitation program. This thing weighed a surprising amount. I'll see If I can get the info.

_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3156051 - 05/11/12 08:11 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Loc: juneau, alaska
Speaking only from personal experience, of which others have far more, I have personally killed in the neighborhood of 20 plus black bears, yet only one brownie.
Of the blackies, most were shot with a 30-06. Ranges varied from 20 feet to over 400 yards, and bullet selection varied as well. I have also been involved in either helping friends shoot bears of thier own, or "backed up" others in retreival. Calibers were generally 30 caliber and up, however my son has killed a few with .243 and .270.
The one brownie I took I shot from about 100 yards on a full frontal. The bullet, an early Barnes X, hit the bear just under the chi, coursed through the bear, and exited at the rear ankle. This was a 30-06. Granted, the bear was not an immense animal, squaring about 7'-8", but a large beast, non the less.
All told, I have probably been involved in one way or another in the take of around 40 bears. I have only had two charges. Both were black bears, and both were wounded. I was able to kill both with head shots, and both were less than 20'. Both were also done with a 30-06 that I knew better than I knew my wife(and that's saying something!).
While I am no expert, My choice, and mine alone, for this discussion, for bears is a .338 or.375.
This is for hunting, but also for any unfortunate follow-up. One generally knows when you are in a place or situation that can lead to an encounter. However, I would never find a person that carries a side-arm "over-gunned" or paranoid, either. Not just a few hand guns have saved more than a few people in various states of surprise!
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#3156054 - 05/11/12 08:12 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Loc: juneau, alaska
W-17. I'll guess 425-450.
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#3156086 - 05/11/12 08:31 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
There was one bigger than this that weighed an honest 720.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3156090 - 05/11/12 08:34 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: alaska viking]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: alaska viking
W-17. I'll guess 425-450.



Bearpaw is currently searching his records but he said he recalls it being over 600
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Mean As Nails

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#3156379 - 05/12/12 01:32 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Loc: Anchoragua
Spek I think you got it. The hydraulic force transfers the shock wave or in which it is created.

It explains why some smaller calibers like a 257 wthby strike like lightning bolts.

Of course the shockwave needed increases as animal size and density does. Hence why there aren't many stone dead cape buff videos.
_________________________
Agnosticism...A non-prophet organization...

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#3156393 - 05/12/12 02:15 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Family Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Wow this thread has gotten interesting. More fun to read in its entirety than one at a time.
I am hoping to take a blackie this spring with my 460,
Does anyone know of anyone harvesting a black with a 10 mm. I have carried this gun prior to the purchase of the 460. I too liked the idea of having 15 rounds for a close encounter. Only came close to having to use it once on a black bear that charge my dog. That well you know came back to me. Interesting circumstances behind the whole encounter. My closest one. Lots of chomping going on at 30 feet. I was ready to unload if she came closer. Hope I never have to deal with a brownie charge.
_________________________
Passion- There are some people who live in a dream world, and their are some who face reality; and then there are those who turn one into the other.

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#3156514 - 05/12/12 08:54 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon
Hup

A bolt gun wont feed the wide metplate bullets that are so common with the heavy weight hard casts designed for the 45/70, like the Beartooth, and Garrett bullets. Round nose solids are famous for veering off course where a wide metplate bullet plows striaght. Linebaugh did a lot of testing, and the results were impressive. The 45/70 with 500 grain wide metplate bullets penetrated further than anything, although some pistol bullets were impressive as well.

I dont buy into the velocity "shock" theory at all. Roy Weatherby tried selling that years ago. That theory was disproved in Africa after a lot of game was taken a long time ago.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3156524 - 05/12/12 09:05 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon
Spek

The largest bear ever weighed in the Yukon was just over 750 pounds. Im sure they get heavier just never been weighed. No question browns get bigger..... but my 45/70 will flatten the largest moose out to 200 yards. Brian Pearce killed two cape buffalo with the old 45/70..... with one bullet!

If there was any truth to the shock theory big game guides the world over would be carrying the 220 swift.

Nobody has more experience with big bad browns than your states, Phil Shoemaker. He has killed wounded browns with a 30/06.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3156532 - 05/12/12 09:15 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon


Edited by yukon254 (05/12/12 09:17 AM)
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3156536 - 05/12/12 09:19 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Loc: juneau, alaska
While I don't think anyone would argue that shot placement is king, another factor is the mind-state of the bear, meaning that a bear that is grazing undisturbed on a grass flat might take a bit less killing than one that has been hit poorly and is then followed up. Call it adrenaline, if you want, but a bear that is wounded with the first shot can take a lot of lead before calling it quits. I think that is where most of the stories of bears taking 5-10 shots to kill come from, (and I'm sure some are true!). Bears for the most part aren't that hard to put down, and most will drop at the shot. It's KEEPING them there that can be a little harder.
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#3156610 - 05/12/12 10:45 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
I think what you need to discuss is energy rather than shock. If you take two bullets of the same caliber & weight, and fire one at 2700 fps and the other at 2900 fps, we all know that the faster one will have more energy at all ranges.

You could increase energy by using a heavier bullet, but the math & physics prove that you can increase energy at a greater rate of increase, by increasing the velocity and keeping bullet weight constant.

Eventually you reach the limit, in terms of pressure, that the rifle will handle unless you decrease bullet weight in order to maintain initial velocity. But now we have probably entered the realm of diminishing returns. We all grew up sort of knowing this stuff but the math presents a visual that is easily understood and accepted. I have that equation in a Sierra manual. The question is, where is the manual? I'll look around for it.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3156616 - 05/12/12 10:51 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Loc: juneau, alaska
E=MC2. That must have been good conversation when you two came up with that one! (Then "he" takes all the credit!).
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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