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#3155202 - 05/10/12 10:53 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 291
Loc: Alaska
At the gun counter I get to see it all. Mist people opt for the auto 45 or 10 mm for the 15 rds it will carry

I try to tell them that they won't need more than two. But whatever

If I knew I was gonna get in a bear fight I would chose the auto m2 benelli with slugs or a big rifle, but auto shotgun first

When people ask for a bear gun I show them a shotgun. But those are inconvenient. So I make sure they know they trade effectiveness for convenience.

The two I would consider is the 454 casul or the 500 smith. The 454 is a serious cannon much more so than a 44. Look at the ballistics. It is impressive.

Alot of folks never handled a pistol and want to buy a bear gun. And buffalo bore ammo and probably never shoot it. But whatever floats Thier boat. If a false sense of security makes them feel better good for them I guess

The Alaska sportsmans holsters are the best IMO. They are worn on the chest, offering easy access. They can also be attached to the d rings on a back pack shoulder straps. Plus it isn't on your hip pulling your britches down or hobbling on one side. They distribute the wieght much better.

Like drasselt says, if the gun is too heavy you won't carry it.

Also, the ruger Alaskan pistols are rated for the heaviest rounds as well as the 500 smith. The smith a44's are not and the airweight 44 are even less. They have lots of problems with bullets unseating in the cylinder from the recoil.

Lastly I wouldn't own a Taurus. Especially an automatic. The revolvers might be a good budget boat gun or a backpack gun /throw away. There is no way I would trust my life on a taurus anything.

I wish they still made the smith 460 in the short barrel versions or ruger made the 480 still


Edited by Hupurest (05/10/12 10:56 PM)
_________________________
You can't have a million dollar dream with a minimum wage work ethic
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

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#3155248 - 05/11/12 12:04 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
The little 44 magnum kills bears, it kills very big bears. In the late 60s my dad killed 7 big coastal bears on the Gang ranch. He used the Ruger semi auto 44 rifle on every one of them. One of those bears is still one of the biggest ever taken in BC.

Spek to get reliable penetration you need momentum. I have a model Winchester 92 in 44 mag. I can assure you the 300 grain bullets I hand load get way more penetration than any 240. To much velocity actually reduces penetration. Thats why the 45/70 with heavy slow bullets has proven to penetrate futher than almost anything, including the 458 and 500 nitro.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3155261 - 05/11/12 12:37 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 812
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Hup, I repect your take on things, but there is a reason that most
guides that have messed around with bears a lot, pack at least a 375
with iron sites. (A high percentage of them have settled on the 375).
The few I have seen packing shotguns don't have many bear hunts under their belt, and after a few encounters are looking to upgrade. You
can't convince people just talking. A 10 ft boar can explain it
fairly well though given, the opportunity.

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#3155265 - 05/11/12 01:11 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 812
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Yukon, on the bear I mentioned killing with the 44 above I was
shooting my own handloads. The bullet went from the bears chest all
the way through and exited out the back just in front of the hip bone.
One of my assistant guides used the same load and shot a 60 inch
bull moose through the neck, shattered the atlas joint and exited
out the other side. That's all the penetration you need on a bullet.
You can put more powder behind the 240 gr bullet than you can behind
the 300 gr without blowing up your cylinder.

When I was working up the load I use in the 44 I tried a lot of different loads, bullet weights and types of bullets. The best I could come up with for a test to shoot into was blocks of 1/2 inch plywood stacked together. I got the best penetration on these test with the 240 gr FMJ silhouette bullets.

Some of the other bullets I tried were the solid Brass bullets,
some brass plated bullets, and two different styles of hard lead bullets. None of them went as deep as the silhouette bullets.
The hard lead bullets deformed from impact, the others didn't.
The lead and the brass bullets had a wider,flatter nose than the
silhouette bullets, which are smoother, more rounded and have a
smaller diameter flat nose.

One thing I have noticed when I have shot animals with these loads
is a surprising amount of blood shot tissue where the bullet went
through. Even though the bullet retains it's shape, the flat nose
must send a significant hydraulic shock wave through the meat. They
don't just punch a hole like a FMJ spire point rifle bullet does,
they damage a lot of muscle on their way through.

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#3155268 - 05/11/12 01:28 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukontrapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Galena Alaska USA
I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk. I used 305's for a number of years. I have since switched to 320 Hard Cast loads. I used nothing but 405 Core Lokt's in my 45/70. I have some Hornady's 320's i been trying. But a buddy loaded me some 45/70 loads 460 grain Hard Cast running 1675. With the Core Lokt's 405's i shot a bear one time in the head, it shattered the Neck and broke all the ribs on along the right side of the back bone and stopped 5" from exiting the 5'5" black bear. I weighed the bullet and it weighed 400 grains. Talk about weight retention and penetration. Last year i had a Big black bear visiting the neighborhood for a few days. I decided on using the 870 3" Slug gun for close quarters. I shot him from about 20' after he got outta the way from the entrance from my house. I shot him right on the neck at the base of the skull. He measured 7' nose to tail. Anything up close and personal my 870 is the way to go. I used a Copper Solid 1 oz. Hollow Point Slug. Manufacturer velocity and energy @ 20 ft. had to be around 1500 FPS and 2200 Ft. LBS. I guess in the end it is how familiar you are with you arms and shot placement. Sometimes you have the time to place it others you may not. So my best opinion is practice and know what your guns are capable of with the loads you use.


Edited by yukontrapper (05/11/12 01:30 AM)

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#3155273 - 05/11/12 01:42 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: yukontrapper]
Cattrax Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 9135
Loc: Wy
When I'm in grizzly country I like to have my 338 or shotgun, I pack the pistol but I feel a lot better with the 338 or shotgun.
_________________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
-- Thomas Jefferson





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#3155528 - 05/11/12 09:57 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Spek Jones]
Cougartail
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Spek Jones
Hup, I repect your take on things, but there is a reason that most
guides that have messed around with bears a lot, pack at least a 375
with iron sites. (A high percentage of them have settled on the 375).
The few I have seen packing shotguns don't have many bear hunts under their belt, and after a few encounters are looking to upgrade. You
can't convince people just talking. A 10 ft boar can explain it
fairly well though given, the opportunity.





So....you got a quick shot off on a bear that charged you. He is 150 yards out and wounded.. Are you; A. going out there with your shotgun after him? or B. Taking another shot with your 375 from where you are standing?

Make mine a large bore rifle, that I can shoot ACCURATELY, iron sights for back-up, with QR rings and a 1x3 or 1x4 scope on top at all times. With QR rings you can keep a 3x9 scope in your pack if needed.

Having been in a human conflict and a bear conflict, the reality of my choice of weapons and lack of training hit me like a "freight train". Being proficient with your weapon is thee most important part of the picture and in most situations the rifle wins the day...but not all.

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#3155553 - 05/11/12 10:35 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Cattrax
When I'm in grizzly country I like to have my 338 or shotgun, I pack the pistol but I feel a lot better with the 338 or shotgun.


Yeah me too, only problem is as soon as I step off the porch I'm in grizzly country. No,wait, they've been on the porch too! It's just not practical to pack a rifle to the outhouse or to take the dog for a walk. If I'm walking on dead salmon up some creek then for sure I'll be packing a big gun AND a side arm.

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#3155558 - 05/11/12 10:40 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Dirt Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/10
Posts: 224
Loc: Armpit, ak
I'm glad I don't care about guns too much. This is going to go on and on and on and on.

P.S. and on and on and on!
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Who is John Galt?

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#3155564 - 05/11/12 10:46 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Alaska
One trait I've noticed is the guys who have been scratched don't go 5 feet into the bushes to pee without a gun of some kind. Once bitten twice shy I guess.

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#3155574 - 05/11/12 10:57 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
UgashikBob Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 528
Loc: Alaska Bristol Bay
AKMac:
I'm glad to hear that. Those Beneke slugs have a good rep. My concern was always depth of penetration but maybe unfounded when you consider close range energy from the frontal area of a slug. I went to quick detach on all my bear rifle scopes and had the bolt/safety added which helped in the ugly stuff but in the case you described a short barreled/ghost ring shotgun would be hard to beat. Your only the second case I've heard of where browns have been killed at close range with a shotgun. Doesn't mean they are ineffective just less people carry them than rifles.

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#3155615 - 05/11/12 11:54 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Kusko Offline
"Mr. Mayor"

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3768
Loc: Bethel, AK
I was laughing out loud when I read a couple things in these posts.

One, Hup said the word "britches".

Two, drasselt calls a mauling "scratched up".

Seriously, that was funny to me.

Now, when I'm on the river with fisherman, I carry my .480 Ruger in a Taurus. Yes, a Taurus. If you keep the Taurus clean, it's a pretty darn good gun. I've never killed a bear with it, but I know what it does to musk ox. I'm very confident with my handgun as I've shot it a lot.

I was on Nunivak a few years ago with a friend of mine. He was carrying his .44 Mag with some super hot, worked up loads in a soft point and I had my .480 with 325 grain Speer Gold Dot soft points. I shot my muskox through both shoulders and it blew out the other side. My friend's muskox wouldn't turn broadside and he shot his 5 times facing him with his .44 mag. The muskox didn't go down. I gave him my .480 and one shot facing him, the muskox was down. Upon skinning it, he was only getting 2-5 inches of penetration. The .480 bullet was lodged in one of back legs and nearly exited.


I have practiced with and shoot 400 grain hard cast bullets when I'm on the river with clients. My partner carries his shotgun with brenekke slugs. Would I rather be toting my .375? Of course, but for convenience and accessibility, I carry the handgun.
_________________________
"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin." Linus Van Pelt

www.alaskafinandfur.com

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#3155628 - 05/11/12 12:12 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
Ive been guiding for 27 years and most of the guides I know pack a 300, 45/70, or 30/06. Even know a few who swear by the 308. Phil Shoemaker had a great article on this subject a year ago in Rifle magazine.

Dirt is right this will go on forever. There are three things to consider, #1 most guys or gals will never be in a tight spot with a bear, #2 VERY few can handle the recoil of anything larger than a 30/06, no matter what they say.... and accuracy is king. #3 more bears have been killed with the 30/30 and 303 than all other calibers combined.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3155645 - 05/11/12 12:30 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Top Jimmy Offline
"Assistant Speling Zcar"

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4555
Loc: Alaska, USA
I think Dirt is right that it will go on forever, because there is never a right answer. A 50cal machine gun or an RPG would certainly protect all of us, but we neither will go through the process and cost to own one, and we would probably never pack it with us in the woods unless it was mounted on something. Any weapon you take with you has to be something YOU will carry on your person, something you are comfortable using proficiently, and something that will do some damage to deter the bear from turning you into a steaming pile of crap or a well used cat post. After considering all those things, get what you think will work and use it.

-TJ
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Some people are like slinkies - not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.


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#3155693 - 05/11/12 01:35 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
northway Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1264
Loc: Tok, Alaska
If I was wanting a short range brush gun, I would get myself a 45-70. I've shot a couple of bears with .44's (blacks) and the penetration was impressive. One I shot was up a tree and I shot it though the chest and it penetrated a 12" cottonwood on the way out! Like said before, this thread could go on and on. A shotgun with slugs at close range is also pretty good bear medicine!

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#3155711 - 05/11/12 01:55 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukonjeff Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 826
Loc: M.T.V. Alaska
I made a bad shot on a standing blacky one time I aimed on his chest with a -06 and hit just a tad low, I waited about 20 minns and then tracked it to where I could see it was laying but still breathing.

I set the 06 down and unholsterd my 44 mag hog leg with a 10' barrel and put one in his side for good measure.
he sprang to his feet and came charging right at me, I had a blow down tree right in between us so I had to wait till he came out my side before I could shoot, (about 20 feet away) I am "NOT" a great psitol shot but managed to hit him on the bridge of his nose on the first shot and broke it over, the bear did do a backwards summersault, it was not a killing shot but he didnt want to bite me no more.

I ran up and put another in his brain box. if I would of waited another 10 minns before going after him he would of been dead..lesson learned.

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#3155733 - 05/11/12 02:21 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
northway Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1264
Loc: Tok, Alaska
I hit a grizz two falls ago about 50 yards with my .300wsm. Hit it in the shoulder and it started running and I fired another at it and then another, after the third shot it must have figured out where I was and where the noise was coming from. One bullet left and grizz bearing down on you at an incredibly speed, put the cross hairs on it's head about 20 yards away and fired the last shot. Bear crumpled up, fumbled for more bullets out of my pocket. After I got the gun loaded, I thought to myself, wow, that could have been very ugly for me. That spring shot a 8+ grizz with one shot from the .300wsm, so I tend to want a little bigger gun with a heavier bullet especially when shooting grizz or browns.

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#3155751 - 05/11/12 02:40 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14673
Loc: McGrath, AK
I take a gun to the outhouse when the growlers are still out prowling around. If I had my preference, it would be a double gun in 375 or greater. It may be inconvenient compared to a handgun but not as inconvenient as being dead.

I think every situation is different. Different bear, different attitude, different angles, distances. Just too many variables to say what is best in all situations. However, there is no question that the best gun is the one you have with you.

Don't always figure that the biggest is the best either. I saw an elephant hit in the hip with a 40 mm grenade. There was a small puff of red dust and he just kept truckin' along.
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#3155770 - 05/11/12 03:05 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Alaskan Offline
"AMY SUE"

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 4967
Loc: Gnome, Alaska
I'd just like to point out, everyone likes to make fun of my ability to put lead down range and in a hurry...but when its needed...i'm very practiced up!
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Life member: NRA, NTA, AkTA, AkFTA, WiTA, MnTA, MoTA, OrTA

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#3155783 - 05/11/12 03:25 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: yukon254]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 291
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: yukon254
The little 44 magnum kills bears, it kills very big bears. In the late 60s my dad killed 7 big coastal bears on the Gang ranch. He used the Ruger semi auto 44 rifle on every one of them. One of those bears is still one of the biggest ever taken in BC.

Spek to get reliable penetration you need momentum. I have a model Winchester 92 in 44 mag. I can assure you the 300 grain bullets I hand load get way more penetration than any 240. To much velocity actually reduces penetration. Thats why the 45/70 with heavy slow bullets has proven to penetrate futher than almost anything, including the 458 and 500 nitro.


How can the 45-70 outperform a 458 Lott when they shoot the same rounds?? Maybe using some soft lead it may, but using a woodleigh or solid then how does it work??? A decrease in velocity also will decrease the ft-lbs of energy to transfer. Velocity is important until it leads to over penetration / exit wound. While the exit wound makes tracking easier, it doesn't aid in the death as not all energy is expended into the target. When a round encounters the opposite side skin, if it retains over @250 fps velocity it will exit. The skin is elastic and can stop a round at under @250fps , leaving the round just under the skin, having transferred every last drop of energy into the target

Also, penetration is not the only factor.

Velocity kills itself. There is a certain velocity at which the impact causes such a shockeave that it reaches the brain. Where it destroys vessels and causes hemorrhaging. In instances of one shot kills, the animal typically succumbs to that shock nearly instantly vs dying from the wound itself.

I have read alot of scientific papers and the effect of the shockwave And the reasons of near instant death concluded from autopsies. Pigs and people. It also helps to explain why certain calibers like the 257 wthby is like a light switch to animals.

Self preservation and hunting are two completely different things. In the defense case it has to end that second. Not a minute later after the critter or bad guy bleeds out. Instant incapacitation is the only acceptable outcome. I dis ALOT of research into this, what causes it and what is most effective hence, i chose a 357 sig for a personal defense weapon it achieves the velocity to impart a shockwave which causes near instant death, when a "target" is hit in the chest. The autopsies have shown death from brain tissue damage and brain bleeds occurred in nearly every case. The death was not caused by the gaping chest wound, that is a secondary wound. The "secondary" wound will lead to death albeit not instant

Hunting it doesn't matter if it is one second or a minute.

Caliber selection and bullet choices need to weighed for each instance. Especially in larger game.

Spek, the only reason I would choose that particular shotgun over a 375,416 or larger would be the ability to have a quick second shot. Making the first one count is most important I feel. But just in case I would like a quick follow up or two. Wereas with such long actions and the bolt throw and need to requite the target after reloading would be MY reason to choose that auto shotgun. A 1 oz hunk of lead is a formidable pill when dispensed frontally on a bear.

If I could have a 500 a-sq or larger side by side that would be acceptable as well to me. But I can't afford even the cheapest merkel.
_________________________
You can't have a million dollar dream with a minimum wage work ethic
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

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