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Alaska Trappers Association

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#3156624 - 05/12/12 11:03 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
Yeah that skunk !

The real interesting one, and the one that applies here, is F=ma. Force equals mass times acceleration. Newton's second law. He was eating those dang fig cookies all the time.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3156640 - 05/12/12 11:31 AM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Don't mean to be disprectful here, but you have some funny ideas Yukon.
A lot can be done in the way of acheiving greater velocity and penetration on any about any round by hand loading your own. You certainly will get more penetration by increasing the velocity AS LONG AS you keep your bullet from disenigrating. If you use the same round in a 44 mag rifle versus a 44 handgun, the rifle, due to the longer barrel, will produce the greater velocity, which will in turn give deeper penetration, AS LONG AS the bullet you are using retains it's shape. On a soft bullet increased
speed will flatten the bullet more and result in poorer penetration, but as long as the
bullet retains it's shape, increased speed will only drive farther into the meat.

I stood there and watched my older brother drop an adult moose one time with one shot,
with a 22 long rifle. That does not mean that the 22 long rifle is a good moose gun.
My late step father killed a sow brownie one time back in the 30's with a 22 hornet. It was all he had and he had to do something. I could go on and on with these stories, but they don't serve no purpose as far as being useful information. To me, kinda the same thing goes for what so and so done in Africa.

In the long run, I think a person has to work it out for themselves. You know the size of the bears you may have to deal with in your area, you have worked up some loads
for your 45-70 that you are comfortable with, so that's all good. Long as you are
confident with it there is no reason to change. But, it's a mistake to think that what's good for a 750 grizzly is also good for a 12 or 14 hundred pound brown bear.

There is and have been, a lot of guy's up here that has had ton's of experience with brown bears. Alf Madson, Bill Pinnell, Morris Talifson, Hal waugh, Park Munsey, just to name a few. Most started out with guns like the 45-70 or the 30-06 back in the 30's and 40's, but all of them, eventually moved up to the big bores. In the 50 some years I have been stomping around in the woods I have had quite a bit of brown bear experience, but I don't put myself anywhere near the same class as these guy's. They were guiding at a time when season's were long, they had huge areas to hunt and could book a lot of hunters. The bear population then was not as picked over as it is today so on an average I think they probably dealt with more bears that were over the 1,000 lb mark than what is generally here today. They're still here, just percentage wise probably not as many
in the population as there was back then on Kodiak and the Ak Pen.
(One thing though, with the bear season having been closed here on the Kenai for the last
15 years we are getting a fair population of big boars here, so I think the chances of
people having an encounter with a big one here, especially on a kill, has bumped up considerably over what it was 15 years ago).

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#3156668 - 05/12/12 12:27 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
E=MC2 #%&#*. Must be a foriegn language? French maybe?

Here's some more stuff. (useless information, except to aggravate Dirt with) grin

Just for size comparisions:

Minimum B&C score on Black bear for entry in the RB, 21 points.
Three points below what the mimimum score is for Grizzlys.

Grizzly minimum score is 24, four points below the Minimum
score for Brown Bear.

By their numbers, the size range between a grizzly and a brown bear is greater
than the size range between a black bear and a grizzly.

In the edition of the record book I have there is a total of:
109 black bear recorded.
235 grizzly recorded.
263 brown bear recorded.

I am quite certain there has been over the years a lot more black bears killed
than grizzly's or brownies. So you would expect there to be more black bears
recorded in the book than grizzly's or brownie's.

I would also think, but could be wrong, that there have been more grizzlys killed
than brown bear? Not sure on that. May be close to the same number. If it's close to the same number then it seems there would be close to the same number of each recorded.
The numbers seem to indicate that maybe there needs to be some adjustments on the
minimum scores. Maybe lower the score on black bear and raise it a little on brown bear.

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#3156687 - 05/12/12 12:55 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Cougartail
Unregistered

There was a emergency room physician down in LA (I believe?) who became interested in why some humans died instantly and others did not as it didn't correlate to the apparent amount of damage the bullets inflicted. After years of studying gunshot victims his theory was pressure to the brain like "Hup" stated, but took it one step further. He concluded if the bullet struck at the time the heart was expelling blood, it in fact could with both pressures combined surpass the elasticity of blood vessels causing ruptures in the brain and killing the subject.

In the study the military did, the proximity of bullet impact in relationship to the brain and heart was very important as the burst blood vessels was not equal among all test subjects. (pigs) As I recall in the best case scenario the pressures needed to burst capillaries were barely met but happened.

Your arteries are like hoses with water in them and everybody knows you stomp anywhere along it's length and that pressure will cause water to squirt out one end or the other. I think there may be validity in this theory especially among smaller creatures where there isn't the mass to dissipate the energy.

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#3156695 - 05/12/12 01:12 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Loc: Alaska

"There is and have been, a lot of guy's up here that has had ton's of experience with brown bears. Alf Madson, Bill Pinnell, Morris Talifson, Hal waugh, Park Munsey, just to name a few. Most started out with guns like the 45-70 or the 30-06 back in the 30's and 40's, but all of them, eventually moved up to the big bores."

When I guided on Kodiak I showed up with my 338 and the old guide handed me a .416 rem mag and said "take this your gun ain't big enough" so I went out and did some practice shooting with it. His words were "I want to break them in two".

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#3156700 - 05/12/12 01:21 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Well put Cougartail.

I saw this happen one time on a brown bear. A 9 1/2 footer hit through the shoulders (heart
shot) broadside at 50 yds with a 378 wtby. The bear dropped like it was head shot,
never twitched. I had never seen that before with a body shot and it had me scratching
my head. I thought of that a lot over the years and never really had a theory on
why it happened. It's just something that don't ever seem to happen and it had me stumped.
But when Hup posted that the light came on. A hit with split second timeing on the heart stroke is about the only thing that could have happened in that case.

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#3156708 - 05/12/12 01:34 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Family Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Loc: Homer, Alaska
That was s pretty good pistol article yukon.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704793/

For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used.

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27"
.480 Ruger 325 gr. XTP 1,350 fps 17"


Edited by Family Trapper (05/12/12 01:35 PM)
_________________________
Passion- There are some people who live in a dream world, and their are some who face reality; and then there are those who turn one into the other.

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#3156724 - 05/12/12 01:57 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Family Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Loc: Homer, Alaska
So any discussion on what to do when you don't have a gun!!

I am still thinking of the knife bear fight The comment
"round and round with his buck knife then finally knocked the bear down with a fist to the snout like tapping a fox on the nose to stun him,"

and something my brother found out when releasing black bears from a trap. Also might be something to consider in the right pinch. Say a black bear coming up your tree stand etc
What my brother found out was that small black bears did not respond to the same hit on the nose as a fox or coyote. The traditional smack across the bridge of the nose to to knock them out cold for a bit. What he said worked out a lot better was a smack square to the end of the nose. At least in bears that were held in a coyote trap it knocked them out cold. For what its worth and in the event that you find yourself only armed with something to swing with. I will be swinging with a purpose and a target if one wants a piece of me. Don't know if I would have the patience to roll over and play dead for very long. Or at all.
_________________________
Passion- There are some people who live in a dream world, and their are some who face reality; and then there are those who turn one into the other.

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#3156730 - 05/12/12 02:10 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Loc: McGrath, AK
Seems to me I read an article some years back about a woman attacked by some kind of bear. She actually grabbed a handful of dirt and forest detritus and jammed it down his throat when the opportunity presented itself.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#3156750 - 05/12/12 02:40 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Loc: Alaska
FT in the account of the knife fight the man said that late in the fight he remembered something a dog musher friend of his from Homer had told him about breaking up a bad dog fight and that was rapping the dog on the nose so in my mind I pictured what I know about tapping a fox or coyote.

The man was right-handed but his right forearm had been shredded early in the battle so he put everything he had into a blow to some point on the bear's snout with his left hand and the bear went down. He thought he had broken his hand. He remembers the pain which is saying something because both he and the bear were showing considerable wear at that point.

Part of what impressed me about the guy was he kept his head as he fought the bear. For example being a lifelong hunter he had watched many bears and came to the conclusion that most of them are right handed since most of the time they are pawing at berries etc they tend to use their right paw first. So when he first saw the bear coming he figured to sidestep to the bears' left side and stick it with his knife as it swept past. He almost made it but the bear was quick with the left paw too and hooked his ear off with a single claw (he figures).

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#3156767 - 05/12/12 03:19 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Dirt Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/10
Loc: Armpit, ak
A can of Spam weighs 12 ounces or 3/4 of a pound. The mass would be m=w/g or .75lb/32ft/s2

If you can hurl it at 90 mph that would be 132ft/s

The energy delivered E = mv2 would be .75lb/32ft/s2 X (132ft/s).(132ft/s) or 408ft.lb.



This day he was a brown bear, some days I'm sure he was a grizzly.
_________________________
Who is John Galt?

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#3156786 - 05/12/12 04:01 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Loc: Alaska
Dirt that should suffice given a good snout hit.

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#3156793 - 05/12/12 04:11 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Ft, on that chart the bullet they were shooting in the 44 was a semi-wadcutter. I'm
surprised it even made it 27 inches. Poor performance with that round was predictable
before it was even tried. I think it was AKViking that said something a while back about statistic's being numbers that have been tortured into submission, or something to that effect. By altering bullets and powder charges you drastically alter the performance
of any of those rounds.

Drasselt, I have generally the same opinion on the 338 as that old guy had. They look
good on paper, but seeing their performance over time I came to dislike them. But
the hunters I had back then invaribaly used factory loads, and some of the loads available today were not available back then. If you can retain most of your bullet
weight and keep it from splattering on impact it would be a lot more effective. Here
again, you can load them so they splatter on impact, or you can load them to where
they will penetrate deep, depending on your choice of powder and projectile.

Now it looks like we need a volunteer to go out and do some test to see what knife works best in a bear fight. Community service type thing.

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#3156796 - 05/12/12 04:17 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Spek Jones]
Cougartail
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: Spek Jones


Now it looks like we need a volunteer to go out and do some test to see what knife works best in a bear fight. Community service type thing.


I nominate Dirt. If he can get it done with a can of Spam, it will be a piece of cake with a knife..

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#3156800 - 05/12/12 04:26 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
LOL

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#3156802 - 05/12/12 04:27 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon
Spek

Those "funny ideas" are not mine. This argument is as old as rifles, and the guns that fire them. Read the old arguments between Elmer Keith, and Jack O'Connor. Tests have proven over and over that once a certain amount of velocity is reached penetration suffers. Of course bullet construction has a lot to do with that. I can assure you a 45/70 that will kill moose will have no problem with any bear. And the 44 magnum handgun has killed every animal on the planet including elephants. Nothing wrong with the big bangers if you can handle them..... the problem with recommending them is that most simply cant.

AV and T4E are completely right, shot placement is king, and an undisturbed bear is a lot easier to kill. The quickest kill I ever saw on a mad grizzly was one I killed with a 50 cal blackpowder rifle. I was shooting a 490 grn bullet at a measly 1100 FPS..... sounds anemic compared to the big whiz bangers out there today but it kills very well.

Just think of how many big bears are killed each year with sharp sticks..... shot placement and penetration will do it ever time.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3156838 - 05/12/12 04:57 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Loc: Alaska
Yukon
The studies I read were based on 1 shot kills in humans. The study was long as people don't just shoot once.

Then there was a study done on pigs. Sensors near the brain and they shot then in the arse to measure

The shock is a killing force. Fact.

I dint know if u wrote it or not, but the size of the critter matters. Luke cape buff and real big game animals. Basically you can't launch a big enough round fast enough to be proportionate to a 125 gr rd and a chest or thoracic shot on a person or a deer sized game.

The studies I read didn't mention the heart pumping theory.
Rather explained that the shock wave or hydraulic pressure like dork me jibed us what bursts the capillaries and veins in the brain.

I will try to find them to post them.

So ol Roy wasn't so wrong. When it comes to small and medium sized game. And would explain why that ol quarter bore he made such a killing round.
_________________________
The two most common things on this planet are hydrogen and stupidity

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#3156942 - 05/12/12 06:29 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon
Hup

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Mine is based on almost 30 years of guiding and never once have I seen an animal die from what some call hydraulic shock. Not saying it dont happen but Ive never seen it. I have been lucky enough to get to hunt a lot more than most and I can honestly say that I have not noticed any superior killing power from the big fast magnums. I have noticed that the vast majority of the hunter who are using those big magnums are very poor shots.

In the early 1980s we saw a lot of sheep hunters with Weatherbys, a lot of guides who worked back then will tell you the performance was dismal at best. We now know bullet construction was the problem. With good bullets the Weatherbys and other high velocity rounds are fine, but you better have great bullets. One big drawback to the high velocity rounds is that even good bullets can fail at close range. The 30/06 seems to be about perfect from 0 to 350 yards or so.

As far as dangerous game goes, look at what the African PHs carry... 470 nitros, 458s, and 416s. Even the 416 is reasonably slow, and the 45/70 with proper bullets will do anything any of these rounds will do.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#3157106 - 05/12/12 08:14 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
Spek Jones Offline
"FATHER"

Registered: 01/10/09
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Yukon, you said yourself the biggest grizzly ever measured there was just over 750 lbs.
The biggest brown bear here will run around 1,500 lbs. I have messed with these big bears
and you haven't. So.. you're going to go ahead and tell me all about them? Huh!!
Let her rattle sir. I'm all ears.

One thing we can agree on, shot placement is king. The problem is, there is not alway's
time for precise shot placement.

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#3157288 - 05/12/12 10:38 PM Re: Bear attack [Re: Cattrax]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Loc: Yukon
Spek

Not many bears here or there are actually weighed. I simply said the heaviest our fish/game ever weighed was 750. Im less than 40 miles crows flight from southeast AK and bears dont listen to the TSA. If you think for a second I dont have any experience with big bears you would be wrong. I wasnt trying to tell you anything. Lots of bears of all kinds have been killed with the 30/06 and less. Thats just a fact.

I think we could also agree that a big bull moose will equal your big browns in body weight....well then if a 45/70 will shoot clean through a moose end to end doesnt it stand to reason it would your big brown bears? Funny thing but watching Alaska State Troopers last night one of them was carrying a marlin 45/70.

Without good shot placement it dont matter what caliber your shooting you've got problems.... even with our "little" bears. What you need is a caliber/ bullet that will get to the vitals from any angle. Thats where some calibers fail, and why most guides in NA and PHs in Africa use heavy for caliber bullets.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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