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Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #262826
07/16/07 09:52 PM
07/16/07 09:52 PM
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DFronek Offline
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Using what I did then,maybe a little better knowing what I know now,but still feel my pullout rate would still be higher compared to now,also some stock traps are better than others.I noticed a difference back before then switch from #2 vic sj to #2 NW and monty's,and when switching to modified #2 NW and montiy's I could see a difference there as well.Now I'm using moded #3 Bridgers,vics,etc,and don't know how I trapped without em'.lol

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #262845
07/16/07 10:00 PM
07/16/07 10:00 PM
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DFronek Offline
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LOL

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: DFronek] #262848
07/16/07 10:00 PM
07/16/07 10:00 PM

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That's a good answer. \:\)

Here's another question...

Why do you think they hold your catches better? I mean what elements of the trap make it hold the critters foot better than a stock trap? Use a #3 bridger as an example, stock vs. modified.

(Note: As you know I'm not busting your chops, just trying to make this post as informational as possible. ;\) )

~ADC~

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #262852
07/16/07 10:01 PM
07/16/07 10:01 PM

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Deadfox, who rattled your chain? LOL

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #262861
07/16/07 10:04 PM
07/16/07 10:04 PM
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DFronek Offline
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Off to work now,I'll post tommorrow.Gotta keep ya in suspence,lol

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #262959
07/16/07 11:01 PM
07/16/07 11:01 PM
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Farmerville, La
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offshoretrash Offline
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I would think more gripping surface = more hold power. I use laminated traps for coon and since I started using them I haven't lost a coon yet.

Center swiveling does not mean their foot will be in the center every time. I had several catches that their foot was to the side.

As far as bad advice goes I don't think this is bad advice coming from some of the better trappers out there that catch 1000s of animals a year. I think they would know what they are talking about.

If you trap around places where you may catch a pet those laminates can save your butt.


2006 and 2007 T-Man/Cathryn Corner Fantasy Football League Champion
Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: offshoretrash] #262977
07/16/07 11:19 PM
07/16/07 11:19 PM

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 Originally Posted By: offshoretrash
I would think more gripping surface = more hold power. I use laminated traps for coon and since I started using them I haven't lost a coon yet.

Center swiveling does not mean their foot will be in the center every time. I had several catches that their foot was to the side.

If you trap around places where you may catch a pet those laminates can save your butt.


Interesting. I always thought it was the trap closed above a knuckle that held the foot in the trap, so a trap cutting in tight above the knuckle held better. It seems at least on paper, if you put your fingers between two pieces of 1/8" thick steel you'd have a harder time pulling them out than if they were betweem two 2" wide pieces. \:\)

Center swiveling certainly pulls the foot toward the middle of the trap, I'm sure some times the springs are strongenough to prevent it though.

As for non-targets, I guess you're right it would be better if they could pull out easier. lol

~ADC~

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #263044
07/17/07 12:18 AM
07/17/07 12:18 AM
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East Central, Pennsylvania
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StemCell Offline
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ADC, I have read and reread the theories and arguments for and against laminations on this forum and others. My take is as follows to your well posed questions and analyses:

ADC:
Think about this... if you stake a trap, stick a couple fingers in it, wouldn't it be easier for you to pull your fingers out if you have a wide smooth surface touching your fingers as opposed to a thinner surface digging in tighter? Laminating provides the wider smooth surface.

You're correct in your analysis, a wider smoother surface should exist after lamination. This would have the effect of reducing the pressure exerted per square inch of jaw contact and should make it easier for the animal to pull out. However, if the force exerted by the wider jaws is still sufficient to compress the hair, hide, and underlying muscle tissue to the same degree as the unlaminated jaws, then the amount of this same tissue builds up below the jaws and prevents the pull out. The wider jaws lesson the incidence of cuts, and broken bones and joints that would increase the chance of a pull out. This is especially an important criteria, as most modifications by lamination are accompanied by increased spring tension--either by four coiling or moving to a stronger spring setup. When this occurs, two new factors are introduced. First, the velocity of the jaws closing may be increased and secondly, the added weight of the jaws moving at the same or faster speed carries more terminal impact until closed to the extend the compressed tissue allows. Remember the jaws need to quickly slow down to zero velocity once the tissue is impacted by them. The increased surface area of the laminations helps prevent serious injury to stricken area which then allows for the forces that keep the critter in the trap to begin with work to the fullest extent. I beleive that there is a limit to the force that can be applied to the combination of the closing jaws after which the result are way less than desirable.

ADC:
Also - you'd pull your fingers out the top center of the trap where the pressure is less, right? You wouldn't pull them toward one spring or the other cause it pinches tighter on the sides. Center swiveling moves their foot to the top center when they pull.

Again, I beleive your analysis is correct, to an extent. The widest opening of the trap, given the design will probably be top dead center. However, if the jaws have closed to the minimum gap the the animal's leg tissue allows, then getting it centered at this point would minimize any further movement. This movement may once again cut or tear the hide and allow for a higher probability of further damage to the underlying tissue, tendons, etc. When this happens the little bulge of tissue below the jaws quickly disappears from optimum and may not hold the animal inside of the jaws. Presuming that in most cases, given the pan location in the center, the initial catch location is at or near top dead center, then center swiveling would act to keep it there (this because of narrowing of the gap towards either end) and should help to minimize the effects of movement caused cuts and tears in the hide which is beneficial whether you trap for the live market or not.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: StemCell] #263051
07/17/07 12:28 AM
07/17/07 12:28 AM

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Alright, very good answer stemcell.

If I'm reading correctly then when laminating traps one should always try to increase spring strength by either up sizing the springs or 4 coiling?

And you're saying a slightly damaged foot, caused by cuts, bruising, ect... will actually pull out of the trap easier than a foot uninjured by the jaws?

I hate to bring this up cause I was hoping someone else would but do you think a more "comfortable" grip on the foot would lead to an animal fighting the trap less?

~ADC~

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #263055
07/17/07 12:36 AM
07/17/07 12:36 AM
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East Central, Pennsylvania
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StemCell Offline
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Negative, the more undamaged the grib area the better the trap will hold. The more numb the area is inside of the jaws then the greater the fight because of the lessened negative stimuli. Thus the reason we strive to prevent self inflicted damage to the area inside of the jaws, especially on raccoons.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: StemCell] #263153
07/17/07 05:22 AM
07/17/07 05:22 AM
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Farmerville, La
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offshoretrash Offline
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Just one question. Which would you rather be caught with?

this ><

or this ][

The only pullouts I have had was from low lever Montgomery traps and that seems to be a trap problem not laminates problem.

Coons have a very slick foot as you know. I have had them pull out of #2 dls but none have pulled out of those laminated #1 1/2s. I could go into greater detail but not on an open forum. I can't use drowners on the creeks I trap. I have to hold them there all night and into the morn.

Laminates are not 2" wide they usually add just 3/16" to a 1/4" to the jaw width.

I guess if your just fur trapping and don't care about animal damage go right a head and use what ever...but if your live marketing or trapping all four (coyote, Bobcats, Red and Grey fox) you need a trap that's big enough to hold the the coyotes and cats but gentle enough not to damage the greys.

This is the very reason the MB-550 is supposed to be so good of a trap. The wider jaw surface = less foot damage in a compact trap. I think Everyone here will agree that the wide cast jaw traps are the top of the line traps on the market. Somebody is buying them for $30 a pop!


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Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: ] #263220
07/17/07 08:44 AM
07/17/07 08:44 AM
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I thought they made the jaws more stout as well as increasing surface area, in order to keep jaws from popping out of the frame?

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: boyswannatrap] #263233
07/17/07 09:12 AM
07/17/07 09:12 AM
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DFronek Offline
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Good posts offshore and stemcell.I guess you guys pretty much answered it.

But back to the #3 bridger ADC,I think either a stock or modified #3 Bridger will hold a coyote just as good around here,we have a 24hr check here.The damage I believe would be more with an unlaminated,but I run full mods for reasons already stated,incidentals like fox,coon etc.When I first started modifying my traps,they were #1.5's-#2's,I modified them for a couple of reasons,one to hold incidentals like fox and coon with minimal damage,but also to hold up to that occasional coyote and take the beating they can dish out,now it's mostly coyotes in my area with occasional fox,the population of both these critters have changed places.So now I run larger traps but modified to be gentle on smallercritters.Laminating and baseplating traps IMO not only reduces injury,but makes the trap itself that much more dependable,you can make catch after catch and except for adjusting the pan tension everything stays the same,no bending of the traps base which happens over time or jaws getting popped or bent up.To me theres less maintenence on a trap once it's initially modified than a stock trap.Modifying your traps up whether you do it yourself or have someone do them is money well spent and will pay for themselves in the long run.So modifying traps has 2 major advantages,it's easier on the critters and it helps keep your traps in top shape.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: DFronek] #263242
07/17/07 09:32 AM
07/17/07 09:32 AM
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St Louis, Missouri
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Back to the original question... in regards to center swiveling... I believe that the better and more center swiveled a hold on an animal the less pressure they are able to exert. I was all ready to jump on the band wagon at first, but I have reservations. Good post ADC.


I will comment on the use of laminations with raccoons though.

I have a hard time believing that laminations are needed to hold a raccoon, I will also bet that the hundreds of thousands of raccoons put on a stretcher each year without lams find it hard to believe as well, but maybe wishing it was so.


.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: Barkstone] #263247
07/17/07 09:38 AM
07/17/07 09:38 AM
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Farmerville, La
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offshoretrash Offline
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barkstone I laminated the traps for fox but decided to go with bigger traps so i used them on my water line insteas and they performed exceptionally well.

No you don't have to have laminated traps to hold coons.


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Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: Barkstone] #263257
07/17/07 09:52 AM
07/17/07 09:52 AM
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I think Duane...Blakcoyote hit on another good point not mentioned...less maintance once they are modified. Everyone else answered or suggested other important points why trap mods are important.
I'll throw this out for some thought for guys that are still on the fence with having trap mod.s done or moving up to custom traps.
End frame mounted chain set ups allow the animals paw to slide away from that point...this slide against the trap jaws can cause a cut. Centered chain attachments don't allow for the paw to slide as its already centered.
Overall a proper modified trap is going to allow the trapper to work more efficiently in the field with fewer headaches. And treat the captured animal better.
While its obvious that traps "keep on getting better" every year...consider this...some stock #1 1/2 coilsprings still come with light cheap twin loop chain and end chain rings. WHY? Coyotes are everywhere now...they are being caught in water sets more often every year. Trap manufacturers might want to consider taking the plunge and going with heavier materials.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: offshoretrash] #263260
07/17/07 09:59 AM
07/17/07 09:59 AM

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 Originally Posted By: offshoretrash
Just one question. Which would you rather be caught with?

this ><

or this ][


I'd pick this one ][ because it looks like to me it would be easier on my fingers and I could slide out of it easier. I understand the laminations are good for the critters foot (if you give a crap about their foot) but I'm still not convinced they wouldn't be easier than the non-laminated traps for a critter to pull out of. I'm by no means saying they are easy for critters to pull out of, just easier than >< .

~ADC~

~ADC~

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: boyswannatrap] #263262
07/17/07 10:00 AM
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 Originally Posted By: boyswannatrap
I thought they made the jaws more stout as well as increasing surface area, in order to keep jaws from popping out of the frame?


I addressed that in the origional question. They do that but bubble welded jaw tips won't pop out either. ;\)

~ADC~

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: MChewk] #263264
07/17/07 10:03 AM
07/17/07 10:03 AM
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DFronek Offline
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Another point with end chain attachment is,the animal either has to roll or pass over the chain for the trap to swivel 360 degrees,which probably isn't a big deal,but then considere the swivel action itself,the j-hook is anchored in a corner and has to swivel against to walls basically at 90 degrees of eachother,which doesnt swivel as smooth as a center hook up where the swivel has a flat plane to spin on.Swivel binding can help magnify damage instead of decreasing.

Re: MODIFIED TRAP QUESTION?!? [Re: DFronek] #263267
07/17/07 10:06 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Blak coyote
So modifying traps has 2 major advantages,it's easier on the critters and it helps keep your traps in top shape.


I agree totally! I'd certainlly never tell people modified traps are no good.

So in your VERY knowlegable opinion, can you say honestly, a laminated trap holds the foot of the critters better than a non-laminated trap, in reguards to how hard it would be to pull thier foot out? \:\)

~ADC~

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