Are center swiveled, laminated traps easier for animals to pull out of than stock jaws, and factory side swiveling?


Think about this... if you stake a trap, stick a couple fingers in it, wouldn't it be easier for you to pull your fingers out if you have a wide smooth surface touching your fingers as opposed to a thinner surface digging in tighter? Laminating provides the wider smooth surface.


Also - you'd pull your fingers out the top center of the trap where the pressure is less, right? You wouldn't pull them toward one spring or the other cause it pinches tighter on the sides. Center swiveling moves their foot to the top center when they pull.



~ADC~

Instigator...lol

Good point

depends... which way was the dog facing? lol

ROFLMAO Good one!!

Jayme,

Are you referring to when you used all those Dukes with the pans stuck between the levers????????????

Not for live market work.

The broad jaws work to the trapper's advantage, but only if the set is make to compensate for the extra work the broad (laminated or rubber) jaws have to accomplish.

If there is an advantage to chain attachment point, I would think that it goes to the side mount - but not a full side attachment, I attach most of mine with a welded cold shunt between the hinge point and the center point.

Laminated baseplates are a must.
Adios,
45/70,

OK where you goin with this. I m thinkin you know the answer here.

Try it and let us know!!!

Not sure ADC, caught two cats by one toe and one by two toes. Had another one caught by one that got out and was caught about 200 yards across the field, so must not have hurt to bad. All taken with nr3 Bridger,off set,4x4, outside laminated, base plated and center swiveled. The remainder of critters taken last season with this style of trap, skunk/coon/coyote/badger/cats/and the occational rabbit all had full paw catches with no sign of scraping from pulling out of the trap. File this in the for what it is worth folder. Tom

Would you have side swiveled this catch???

Just like funnin' ya J.

I was serious. Everyone tells everyone to make a trap better, you need to laminate and baseplate with a center swivel. I'm just thinking that may not be the case.

I'm sure the laminations help prevent foot damage. (if you're concerned about that).

Laminations help to prevent the jaws from popping out of the frame, but bubbling or bending the tips up would do that too.

Base plates are fine to sturdy up the trap, but center swiveling only keeps the foot from sliding to the side where it would be a tighter grip. (sure the sliding could possibly create foot damage, if you are concerned about that)

I just wonder if some folks aren't getting bad advice. For people who don't sell to the live market, perhaps un-laminated off-center swiveled traps would be a better option to insure a better hold on the foot of the critters.

~ADC~

LOL Jerry. My manditory deer stops would of let him go, no swivel needed.

Tom, I never said they won't hold critters, just maybe not quite as well. ???

~ADC~

Try this....grip your left index finger between your thumb and your other index finger and pull. Now grip it with your thumb and two fingers. Which way can you hold better with.

If you have to worry about holding one with lamination, you didn't have it caught good enough in the first place. Try 3# of pan tension with steel screen pan covers, there will not be any toe catches. The feet of most animals are much different than our fingers, not a good comparison.T.20

T-20 I wasn't worried about if laminated center swiveled traps WILL hold critters but rather if they hold them as well.

Would you feel better if I'd said use a critters foot in your experiment? lol

By the way, 3# of pan tention is too much for fox as well, according to popular opinion on here, but that's another pot to stir.

~ADC~

I can honestly say since using fully modified(lams & bases) traps for the past 14 years,my loss from pull outs has dramatically decreased compared to unmodified traps(plain jane)also any toe catches that I occasionally get are still there when I check,even back foot caught by a toe or two coyotes.So if they don't hold as well,I guess I'll just have to live with it.lol

Of course you'd say that Blak, you get paid to modify traps. LMAO Just kidding.

I wonder if your success isn't due to more experiance making sets and tuning traps though than the traps holding better. Do you think, knowing the vast amounts you do about traps and trapping now, that you could go back to the regular style and still have a much better catch-pull out rate?

~ADC~

Using what I did then,maybe a little better knowing what I know now,but still feel my pullout rate would still be higher compared to now,also some stock traps are better than others.I noticed a difference back before then switch from #2 vic sj to #2 NW and monty's,and when switching to modified #2 NW and montiy's I could see a difference there as well.Now I'm using moded #3 Bridgers,vics,etc,and don't know how I trapped without em'.lol

LOL

That's a good answer.

Here's another question...

Why do you think they hold your catches better? I mean what elements of the trap make it hold the critters foot better than a stock trap? Use a #3 bridger as an example, stock vs. modified.

(Note: As you know I'm not busting your chops, just trying to make this post as informational as possible. )

~ADC~

Deadfox, who rattled your chain? LOL

Off to work now,I'll post tommorrow.Gotta keep ya in suspence,lol

I would think more gripping surface = more hold power. I use laminated traps for coon and since I started using them I haven't lost a coon yet.

Center swiveling does not mean their foot will be in the center every time. I had several catches that their foot was to the side.

As far as bad advice goes I don't think this is bad advice coming from some of the better trappers out there that catch 1000s of animals a year. I think they would know what they are talking about.

If you trap around places where you may catch a pet those laminates can save your butt.

Interesting. I always thought it was the trap closed above a knuckle that held the foot in the trap, so a trap cutting in tight above the knuckle held better. It seems at least on paper, if you put your fingers between two pieces of 1/8" thick steel you'd have a harder time pulling them out than if they were betweem two 2" wide pieces.

Center swiveling certainly pulls the foot toward the middle of the trap, I'm sure some times the springs are strongenough to prevent it though.

As for non-targets, I guess you're right it would be better if they could pull out easier. lol

~ADC~

ADC, I have read and reread the theories and arguments for and against laminations on this forum and others. My take is as follows to your well posed questions and analyses:

ADC:
Think about this... if you stake a trap, stick a couple fingers in it, wouldn't it be easier for you to pull your fingers out if you have a wide smooth surface touching your fingers as opposed to a thinner surface digging in tighter? Laminating provides the wider smooth surface.

You're correct in your analysis, a wider smoother surface should exist after lamination. This would have the effect of reducing the pressure exerted per square inch of jaw contact and should make it easier for the animal to pull out. However, if the force exerted by the wider jaws is still sufficient to compress the hair, hide, and underlying muscle tissue to the same degree as the unlaminated jaws, then the amount of this same tissue builds up below the jaws and prevents the pull out. The wider jaws lesson the incidence of cuts, and broken bones and joints that would increase the chance of a pull out. This is especially an important criteria, as most modifications by lamination are accompanied by increased spring tension--either by four coiling or moving to a stronger spring setup. When this occurs, two new factors are introduced. First, the velocity of the jaws closing may be increased and secondly, the added weight of the jaws moving at the same or faster speed carries more terminal impact until closed to the extend the compressed tissue allows. Remember the jaws need to quickly slow down to zero velocity once the tissue is impacted by them. The increased surface area of the laminations helps prevent serious injury to stricken area which then allows for the forces that keep the critter in the trap to begin with work to the fullest extent. I beleive that there is a limit to the force that can be applied to the combination of the closing jaws after which the result are way less than desirable.

ADC:
Also - you'd pull your fingers out the top center of the trap where the pressure is less, right? You wouldn't pull them toward one spring or the other cause it pinches tighter on the sides. Center swiveling moves their foot to the top center when they pull.

Again, I beleive your analysis is correct, to an extent. The widest opening of the trap, given the design will probably be top dead center. However, if the jaws have closed to the minimum gap the the animal's leg tissue allows, then getting it centered at this point would minimize any further movement. This movement may once again cut or tear the hide and allow for a higher probability of further damage to the underlying tissue, tendons, etc. When this happens the little bulge of tissue below the jaws quickly disappears from optimum and may not hold the animal inside of the jaws. Presuming that in most cases, given the pan location in the center, the initial catch location is at or near top dead center, then center swiveling would act to keep it there (this because of narrowing of the gap towards either end) and should help to minimize the effects of movement caused cuts and tears in the hide which is beneficial whether you trap for the live market or not.

Alright, very good answer stemcell.

If I'm reading correctly then when laminating traps one should always try to increase spring strength by either up sizing the springs or 4 coiling?

And you're saying a slightly damaged foot, caused by cuts, bruising, ect... will actually pull out of the trap easier than a foot uninjured by the jaws?

I hate to bring this up cause I was hoping someone else would but do you think a more "comfortable" grip on the foot would lead to an animal fighting the trap less?

~ADC~

Negative, the more undamaged the grib area the better the trap will hold. The more numb the area is inside of the jaws then the greater the fight because of the lessened negative stimuli. Thus the reason we strive to prevent self inflicted damage to the area inside of the jaws, especially on raccoons.

Just one question. Which would you rather be caught with?

this ><

or this ][

The only pullouts I have had was from low lever Montgomery traps and that seems to be a trap problem not laminates problem.

Coons have a very slick foot as you know. I have had them pull out of #2 dls but none have pulled out of those laminated #1 1/2s. I could go into greater detail but not on an open forum. I can't use drowners on the creeks I trap. I have to hold them there all night and into the morn.

Laminates are not 2" wide they usually add just 3/16" to a 1/4" to the jaw width.

I guess if your just fur trapping and don't care about animal damage go right a head and use what ever...but if your live marketing or trapping all four (coyote, Bobcats, Red and Grey fox) you need a trap that's big enough to hold the the coyotes and cats but gentle enough not to damage the greys.

This is the very reason the MB-550 is supposed to be so good of a trap. The wider jaw surface = less foot damage in a compact trap. I think Everyone here will agree that the wide cast jaw traps are the top of the line traps on the market. Somebody is buying them for $30 a pop!

I thought they made the jaws more stout as well as increasing surface area, in order to keep jaws from popping out of the frame?

Good posts offshore and stemcell.I guess you guys pretty much answered it.

But back to the #3 bridger ADC,I think either a stock or modified #3 Bridger will hold a coyote just as good around here,we have a 24hr check here.The damage I believe would be more with an unlaminated,but I run full mods for reasons already stated,incidentals like fox,coon etc.When I first started modifying my traps,they were #1.5's-#2's,I modified them for a couple of reasons,one to hold incidentals like fox and coon with minimal damage,but also to hold up to that occasional coyote and take the beating they can dish out,now it's mostly coyotes in my area with occasional fox,the population of both these critters have changed places.So now I run larger traps but modified to be gentle on smallercritters.Laminating and baseplating traps IMO not only reduces injury,but makes the trap itself that much more dependable,you can make catch after catch and except for adjusting the pan tension everything stays the same,no bending of the traps base which happens over time or jaws getting popped or bent up.To me theres less maintenence on a trap once it's initially modified than a stock trap.Modifying your traps up whether you do it yourself or have someone do them is money well spent and will pay for themselves in the long run.So modifying traps has 2 major advantages,it's easier on the critters and it helps keep your traps in top shape.

Back to the original question... in regards to center swiveling... I believe that the better and more center swiveled a hold on an animal the less pressure they are able to exert. I was all ready to jump on the band wagon at first, but I have reservations. Good post ADC.


I will comment on the use of laminations with raccoons though.

I have a hard time believing that laminations are needed to hold a raccoon, I will also bet that the hundreds of thousands of raccoons put on a stretcher each year without lams find it hard to believe as well, but maybe wishing it was so.


.

barkstone I laminated the traps for fox but decided to go with bigger traps so i used them on my water line insteas and they performed exceptionally well.

No you don't have to have laminated traps to hold coons.

I think Duane...Blakcoyote hit on another good point not mentioned...less maintance once they are modified. Everyone else answered or suggested other important points why trap mods are important.
I'll throw this out for some thought for guys that are still on the fence with having trap mod.s done or moving up to custom traps.
End frame mounted chain set ups allow the animals paw to slide away from that point...this slide against the trap jaws can cause a cut. Centered chain attachments don't allow for the paw to slide as its already centered.
Overall a proper modified trap is going to allow the trapper to work more efficiently in the field with fewer headaches. And treat the captured animal better.
While its obvious that traps "keep on getting better" every year...consider this...some stock #1 1/2 coilsprings still come with light cheap twin loop chain and end chain rings. WHY? Coyotes are everywhere now...they are being caught in water sets more often every year. Trap manufacturers might want to consider taking the plunge and going with heavier materials.

I'd pick this one ][ because it looks like to me it would be easier on my fingers and I could slide out of it easier. I understand the laminations are good for the critters foot (if you give a crap about their foot) but I'm still not convinced they wouldn't be easier than the non-laminated traps for a critter to pull out of. I'm by no means saying they are easy for critters to pull out of, just easier than >< .

~ADC~

~ADC~

I addressed that in the origional question. They do that but bubble welded jaw tips won't pop out either.

~ADC~

Another point with end chain attachment is,the animal either has to roll or pass over the chain for the trap to swivel 360 degrees,which probably isn't a big deal,but then considere the swivel action itself,the j-hook is anchored in a corner and has to swivel against to walls basically at 90 degrees of eachother,which doesnt swivel as smooth as a center hook up where the swivel has a flat plane to spin on.Swivel binding can help magnify damage instead of decreasing.

I agree totally! I'd certainlly never tell people modified traps are no good.

So in your VERY knowlegable opinion, can you say honestly, a laminated trap holds the foot of the critters better than a non-laminated trap, in reguards to how hard it would be to pull thier foot out?

~ADC~

OK you got me on that one. Very good point. Now how about an off-center hook up on the base plate with a D ring and the same swivel?

click here and scroll down for those off center plates (for those who may not of seen them)

~ADC~

But if you do, will it hold thier foot from pulling out better than if you don't, assuming they didn't chew on it.

~ADC~

On the traps I use, yes, it does hold their foot better, even if they chew on it. That is what I was talking about not discussing. lol

Oh the traps I use are the ones you hate too...1 1/2 sqaure jaw northwoods...LMAO

Why? I mean, what is the reason it holds better? The surface aera on the trap jaws? It seems like that may work if they were like sand paper and not smooth but...

~ADC~

PS square jaws... That is a different pot to stir on another post.

I would say it holds the same but leaving the foot in better condition.My modified inside and outside laminated #3 Bridgers have just the stock springs on,and have yet to have a pull out.Also as was mentioned before,and I've noticed this,pullouts can be a cause of the traps design.

To me the off center hook up off the base of the trap operates pretty much as a centered swiveled,the swivel is still spin 360 unhindered on a flat plain in the swivel body as opposed to a corner.

Come on say it! "if your not selling the feet..." come on. LMBO!

~ADC~

I'm talking comparing the same two traps, no matter the style or brand, laminated and center swiveled vs non-laminated off-center swiveled. In reguards to how easy it would be for a critter to pull its foot out.

Ok ADC I will spill the beans...I have had coons chew the whole foot off below the jaws and I still held them. I was amazed at this. All I can say is try it. These traps have 1 1/2 music wire springs (they are very strong) with 1/4" lams.

Look I stumbled up on this by accident I was gonna use the traps for live market fox. Back then I could get more for greys alive than dead. I decided to use them for coon figure the lams couldn't hurt nothing.

If wasn't gonna drown coon this is the way I would go.

I got that! Believe me I understand, for you they hold coon better. BUT why? What makes them hold onto the foot better? The strong springs??? I just can't see how a wide smooth surface could grip as well as >< . Is it just because they can get to less foot to chew? If you were trying to grip some thing with pliers, would you want the jaws smooth?

Thanks for playing along, I think we are getting somewhere.

~ADC~

I believe its a combination of things...wide jaw surface...increases the actual surface area in contact with animals paw + strong spring strength...which KEEPS trap jaw surfaces in tighter contact with animals paw + jaw lock up...which using your example of MJ600(MJ500,Heimbrock Lightening, MB650, Jake and others)...allows jaws to stay in ideal position and not change with animals actions to get free.
In traps without offset jaws the mechanical advantage might change (lockup point) when compared to regular jaw traps..so in theory spring strength might be a more critical factor in unwanted releases...possibly.

Another important point not discussed here is...EACH ANIMAL is an individual. It's temperment in a trap is different. Some fight non-stop, some fight then lay down and wait...others fight then find...other ways out. We trappers might not ever find a perfect solution for ALL situations..but I believe trap mod.s are a step in the right direction.

Don't know I am not a mechanical engineer.

Me either if I was I wouldn't have to ask.

Here is something for you ADC. I caught 126 coyotes, 52 bobcats, 9 redfox and several coons with no pull outs. I was using #3 reg. jaw montanas that were laminated, 4 coiled, shock springs and outside swiveled. What I learned is a few of the coyotes slid there foot from side to side but most didn't. If you were trapping for the live market You would want them center swiveled and laminated. The lamination gives you a bigger jaw spread plus a rounded surface. If the traps are 4 coiled they won't pull out of a trap because it's center swiveled and laminated. I also belive that traps that are laminated should also be 4 coiled to add strenght from making a wider jaw surface. Traps that are center swiveled will swivel alot better then end hook ups.

I know you post that two or three times a week.

NOW tell my why you couldn't of done the same thing with non-laminated traps.

~ADC~

I'm sure I could have done the same thing with non-laminated traps. Comfort to the animals and non target animals are the main concern these days. You should no that better then anyone. Pull up to a place to ask permission to trap and show them the traps you use and explain about them and it's not hard to get permission to trap. This is 2007 not 1970.

They don't buy toes either unless there attached to the critter.

OK Jayme, I am going to bite on this and not screw around anymore.

For most of you that know me, my traps are loaded out. For what reason; I can. Plus in my mind and experience, the more I can do for the strength and reliability of my equipment, the less money I spend in the long run. Not to mention, I don't have pictures like some do of bloody cut feet or popped jaws. I don't care what school you went to, more surface area = more resistance. I like inside/outside laminations or cast jaws in offset. All MB650's with shocksprings. Why? Because that's what I like and works for me. I already spend a mint on traps so spending a few more dollars per trap isn't going to hurt. Especially if it is less maintenance for me. Time is money.

As far as the center swivel or the offset swivel, I don't think it really matters. You get the same swiveling effect unlike off of the side of the trap with a j-hook. My traps all have 4 swivels plus a shockspring. I believe in my mind that the shockspring is one of the leading "lifesavers" of pullouts when it comes to toe catches. You can't convince me otherwise and won't. But this is a whole nuther subject.

I think of modified traps like this. You wouldn't buy a 4x4 pick up and not order the front drive shaft to go with it. You want everything possible on that truck to make it perform up to your expectations. Why do we modify truck boxes, ATV's, boats or anything else for trapping? To make them better and fit our needs. Traps shouldn't be any different.

I'm going to respond, but play nice. I'm new at this game...LOL

1st. Is an animals leg bone above the foot tapered to a degree that it gets bigger as you go up? When you put lams on the inside and outside, the inside one is going to hit the bone first due to the way the traps are made. They don't clamp from side to side they are coming up on an arc. So by using lams if the animal pulls it still has the jaw and upper lam putting pressure and the lower lam has even more now.
If this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to draw something to show what I'm talking about.

All good reasons to laminate traps! I agree totally with them! However, no one will say they hold better than non-laminated traps, using the same trap. Laminated vs. non-laminated.

Marty says "I'm sure I could have done the same thing with non-laminated traps."

So why can't everyone else?

Jerry I'm sure you could use them 650's stock and catch just as many coyotes.

Here's what I think... I think it for PR more than holding power.

I'm not saying it is bad. I use laminations where I may incidently catch a non-target. I don't want to hurt anyones pet. BUT that isn't what I was asking. My question was do they hold critters better than stock jaws in terms of pull outs. I still haven't heard anyone say, yes if it weren't for the laminations I'd lose lots of critters.

The reason for this post, was to show that perhaps all the mods are not ALWAYS necessary to prevent losing your catches, But it's more fun to approach it from this way.

~ADC~

Jayme,

You are probably right, I could maybe do just as well stock. And I have seen catches in non-laminated MB's. Pretty rough. Not something I would be proud of.

However, I did state why. More surface area = more resistance. Once you get that pad inside of the jaws it isn't going to matter because it isn't going anywhere. It's a comfort thing then. I still believe that the more surface area gives more to bite not letting the foot move as much, if any. Like I care if slides a bit anyway. The jaws are laminated with roll stock so no cutting.

But, I don't believe laminated jaws will make up for weak springs. The rest of the trap needs to be up to par as well. You got weak springs it isn't probably going to matter if you had 5 laminations on it. They would be a memory.

More surface area = more resistance. what about pliers with no teeth?

LOL! Thanks Jerry, I'll get off your back now. lol

I will say this though, if a person uses the right sized trap for the intended critter and catches that critter, I've see lots of different stock traps that did no damage at all especially with a good pad catch. I used to catch coyotes in 1 1/2 Dukes (no lie, its all I could afford) I don't ever recall any damage from them stock traps.

Welllllll, who needs laminations with teeth?

Wide smooth surface.... VS. thin surface.... nevermind.

I think that the fact that no one lams without also talking about 4 coling or beefing up the springs kinda pulls the plug on their own arguement ADC.

If Lams did not require more to hold the same why would 4 coiling even be discussed.

In regards to more surface area = more holding power, that is not true. the pounds per square in are only half as much if you double the area of the hold with the same springs (back to the reason for 4 coiling.)

If you were to exert the same amount of pounds per square inch with a pair of 2x4's on my hand as that of a belisle 330 and put it on my hand I would die before I could pull out of one and the other would simply slide off.

I can't believe this is causing such a debate. Good one ADC...


.

Better check your eyeglasses, this was never stated in any post that I can see.

Jerry dude, it's right there. LOL

Found em... things still look the same, now only different.

beside the obvious, the lamination is never quite as neat as your little flat inside surface demonstration to start this discussion. The inside surface is actually two round surfaces one above the other, assuming time was taken to round the jaws or round jaws were used on model of trap that was laminated. The small gap that is left between these two round circles also increases holding and preventing animals from pulling out, since tissue will be pressed into this gap.
Another Major improvement with the lamination is the strengthening of the jaws-----This prevents them from flexing up and down as animal struggles----thus preventing scissor actions.

Also because the jaws do not flex, when animal flops from side to side, instead of straight up and down, there is much less cutting actions. put a broom handle in a trap and attempt to work it by tipping from dog side to opposite side with both laminated and regular jaws.

Basically there is only one real reason for NOT laminating traps ------- CHEAP LAZY TRAPPER!

LOL Barkstone! Thanks for the support.

From now on we say ALWAYS laminate AND BEEF UP YOUR SPRINGS.

But why center swivel?

Or poor kid who just wants to trap with what he has.

No thanks I don't want to play anymore.

If they hold better than unlaminated traps why are there unlaminated traps Mr.Pedersen? Why don't Paul have all them CDRs laminated?

all my montanas are NOT laminated, they hold just fine.

pretty sure im gonna sell what bridgers i have left, that are all tricked out, as i dont need them tricked out, and its bugging me i have a few that are different.

I do not belive coyotes are these monsterous supe strengthed animals that can tear steel up. AGAIN, i run all #3 sized traps to. I have seen BOBCATS yank a trap more thna coyotes, especailly big toms.

if a new trapper doesnt want to trick out a trap, thats fine, IMO i dont think he needs to.

As far as the poor kid that can not afford it----when I look around today, I see very few actual poor kids in this great nation of ours, and I see lines of people offering help---even here on this forum there are donations after donations to help kids.

There is a big difference in water trapping and land trapping and I do not think lamination does improve trapping for big slick hard hind foot beaver catchs. So I stand corrected on that line item.

Slim what year did you first hear of/see/use jaw lam.s? I think JC and I discussed this a few years back...was wondering.

Not sure of exact year, but sometime in late sixies or very early 70's maybe was first time I attempted to laminate some number three long springs, due to the high cost of cast jaws. It was an effort to immitate cast jaws at first, but over time, I came to realize the value of laminated jaws. Not saying yet, that they are as good as cast jaws, but still cheaper and much easier to come by.

Thanks Slim...a man ahead of the times for sure!

Asumming the jaws a srong enough to begin with to keep from popping out, I think non lams will allow the trap jaws to set into the foot better, thus a better hold. Having said that, the non lams will do more damage than laminated traps because of this. If a trap is in good enough condition to be serviceable, pullouts shouldn't be a problem. How's that for stirrin it up? LOL!

ttt

Trouble maker!

SO...when it's all said and done...everything being equal...which IS more important FOR STRICTLY HOLDING THE ANIMAL'S PAW...strong springs and a trap with end frame swiveling OR a...how do we say it...a medium strength springed trap with its chain mounted from the center of the trap's base???

high levers, for the leverage, is where the holding power comes from...

ALL OF THESE ARE NON MODIFIED SIDE SWIVELED #3 MONTANAS..all hte coyotes feet are on the end of the jaws.






look at this side toe catch, held in a unmodified #3 montana

PA skinner, keep in those..."three men and a boy to set traps"..are not being fired off on the animals paw WITHOUT coming through a dirt covering....usually around here its semi-frozen or wet. They do slow down quite a bit. Give me a strong modified or custon trap any day.

charlesKS, that is one funny lookin coyote in the 2nd pic

thast a fine speciman of a coyote...everyone wants to come to kansas and trap coyotes, there he is....

lamination strips slows down the jaws...probably not a lot, but thats more surface area the jaws have to push through.

A couple observations,but before I do,just want to say #3 montanas are a good,well built trap that hold coyotes well.I've been using them the last 3 years,the first year unlaminated but baseplated,then all lammed the the other 2 years and non 4 coiled just stock springs.I've always liked the dogless low profile.I've also been running #3 Bridgers baseplated and I/O laminated with stock springs.What I've noticed with the montanas and dogless monty's,is alot of coyotes caught at the corner of the jaws,if you noticed in the first pic that Charles show,the foot is definately at the corner,but not opposite the chain,it's on the same side,no foot sliding.But the reason I believe alot are caught at the corner is because it's difficult to get your pan tension much above 2#,atleast I have.I prefer the foot in the center.I've noticed this corner catch on my center swiveled montanas and my monty's in the past.I really don't think the paw slides all that much in the montanas if at all.My other observation,is laminated traps IMO aren't really all that slower if at all as well,especially if there 4 coiled,but even with my 2 coiled montanas,I didn't see a difference on how high or low the foot was caught with lammed or unlammed montanas.On my Bridgers that are I/O laminated,my catches are usually about 90% pad catches,there stock 2 coil or music wire 2 coiled with pan tension sitting between 3.5#-4#.I think with the heavier pan tension the animals weight is committed to the trap,and slightly less speed if any with lams isn't going to make a difference,the animals is going to fall no matter what when the pan drops,with 2# of tension the animal is just getting it's weight in there,so you get more toe,or corner catches,or half pad catches.Even though the montanas and monty's have nice round rolled jaw edges,I've seen less paw damage with the lams,it's a given I guess with any trap,but if I were to run a trap unlaminated it would be the montana or the monty's.But given a choice between lams or no lams,I'd choose lams any day,whether 2 or 4 coiled.Like Slim has mentioned an unlaminated traps jaws flex causing that scissor or friction action against the foot.One benifit I've also reaped from lams on my traps is that I've been granted access to land that the landowner was hesitant to let me trap because of farm dogs,etc. and the fact that they remember images of torn up feetyears ago.After explaining what the mods do and showing my catches over the years to these landowners has opened more land for me.

I am a red neck who probably suffers from A.D.D. which has resulted in me having a variety of traps in various states of modification. I have some laminated, some not, most baseplated, but always have a few that I have not gotten around to yet. This disorder I have, has given me the chance to see coyotes work various setups on a regular basis.

I have opinions on the physics of the whole dealio, but will keep it basic.

Having watched coyotes in my traps, I greatly prefer center swivel setups with baseplates, on my coyote and coon traps. It just flat out treats the animal better in my observation. I have caught a truck load of coyotes in factory side swiveled setups, and they treat the coyote OK, but I prefer to treat him better than OK.

I think laminates treat them even better, and I do not four coil my laminated units.

I do not get all these popped out jaws I am hearing about. Knock on wood this is not my experience at all, with any kind of traps Dukes or Montgomery. It intrigues me as to what the difference must be (spring strength? length of chain?). My next major investment will be in JC Conners in line springs for all my coyote traps. I can see great value in these watching coyotes work them.

I think when you start extending checks, all these things become even more important. A small difference in a 24 hour check state like Iowa, starts becoming a bigger difference in the way we treat our animals on a three day check like Wyoming.

I think swivelling is key to animal comfort and good treatment. I would rate it the most important, and the center swivel baseplate is just down right superior in all round swiveling, not matter what the coyote does. If he piles a bunch of trash into the center, the middle and baseplate swivel continue to treat him well, where a factory setup may start to bind and have issues.

Amen Brother "Poopmeister"...I mean K9...lol
Good comments regarding extended check times and swivels...your comment about popped out jaws. the last popped jaw I had was in a #4 Monty hi lever. Coyote popped out the jaw out on a 24 inch chain...catch circle in the snow told everything...un modifed trap. In all fairness the jaw tips on the #4 montys were known to be a bit weak.

Youhave the coyotes behind you to put weight to your words Sam. I am thinking when I get all in line Conners type springs on my chains that chain length will be less of a factor for me. I know this is the way I need to go, just have not spent the money or time yet.

I have no problem with long chains on a big trap, but when talking a 1 75 of any make, I want a short chain.