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#2116922 - 08/24/10 05:37 PM Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!!
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia



Wayne Pacelle of H$U$ couln't raise worms in rich soil under a manure pile. Yet , he is dictating legislation on how to raise hens which will cost producers & consumers tens of millions of dollars.

Wall Street Journal
BUSINESS
Cracking California's Egg Rules
By JEAN GUERRERO
AUGUST 19, 2010
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...=humane+society


MODESTO, Calif.—About 150,000 hens at egg producer J.S. West Inc.
appear to have scored an upgrade.

They cluck and cackle in an air-conditioned henhouse that got a $3.2
million renovation this year. Some lay eggs in nesting areas, where
lights are dimmed. Others poise on perches with room to flap their
wings. They even have hen-style nail files in their cages.

California's egg farmers are struggling to comply with Proposition 2,
the state's new guidelines on how egg-laying chickens can be kept.

Two years after California voters approved a law designed to create
humane standards for farm animals, it isn't clear if these hens are
leading lives of luxury—or being treated cruelly.

The law, known as Proposition 2, doesn't take effect until 2015, but
it is already generating confusion among egg producers who aren't sure
if they need to get bigger cages like those at J.S. West or let the
hens roam free. As a result, few have made any changes at all.

The law mandates that egg-laying hens must be able to fully extend
their limbs, lie down and turn in a circle within their enclosures.
Michigan approved similar regulations last year, and gave egg
producers 10 years to make changes. Other states—including Ohio,
Arizona and Florida—have adopted less restrictive regulations.

The California requirements have proven resistant to uniform
interpretation. "Who knows what the law states," said Debbie Murdock,
executive director of the Association of California Egg Farmers, which
has called for clearer guidelines.

There is also ambiguity over how the law is going to be enforced, or by whom.

According to California state legislators, no decision has been made
on who will have the final say; possibilities include the Department
of Food and Agriculture and the Department of Public Health.

Now the confusion is set to be exported to neighboring states.
Responding to worries that Proposition 2 would drive egg production
away from California and result in massive out-of-state egg imports,
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed legislation last month extending the
caging requirements to all eggs sold in California, no matter where
they were laid.

"Many propositions have the best of intentions, but they suffer from
the lack of thorough vetting and deliberative process necessary to
answer tough questions about how they're going to actually be
implemented and enforced," said Assemblyman Jared Huffman, who wrote
the bill extending the regulations to all eggs sold in the state in
order to level the playing field.

J.S. West spent $3.2 million to install bigger cages, known as
enriched colony systems, in one of its henhouses in Modesto, Calif.

California ranks fifth among states in egg production, with an average
of 4.9 billion eggs a year valued at $300 million. That's roughly 5%
of the nation's egg output. About a third of the eggs consumed by
Californians are from out of state, but most of those are eggs that
have been processed for other foods, such as pasta. The laws apply
only to intact eggs.

J.S. West responded to the requirements by upgrading one of its
buildings with the more spacious, furnished cages, known as enriched
colony systems.

The Humane Society of the U.S., a main sponsor of Proposition 2, says
the company made a big mistake.

"It's just a common-sense sort of view that a slightly bigger cage is
going to continue to frustrate the natural behavior of laying hens,"
said the group's president, Wayne Pacelle.

Mr. Pacelle says the only way to comply with the new laws is to go
cage-free, because, he asserts, no commercially viable cages in
existence—including the enriched colony system—give hens the room to
perform the behaviors described in the law.

According to research cited by his organization, hens need 138 square
inches each to fully stretch their wings. Enriched colony systems
provide each hen with 116 square inches per hen. The United Egg
Producers, a trade association representing most of the nation's egg
producers, recommends 67 square inches.

Egg Recall Tied to Salmonella Grows
J.S. West President Eric Benson says his company has done enough:
"These cages go way beyond the Prop. 2 requirements."

The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer.
J.S. West keeps only six hens in the traditional cages of its
unrenovated barns, but they still trample and slap each other when
moving around.

Adding to the uncertainty, the American Humane Association has
certified enriched colony housing as a humane alternative. The
American Humane Association is a nonprofit independent group founded
in 1877 with the oldest U.S. certification program for the humane
treatment of farm animals. The new cages are set to become the minimum
requirement in Europe in 2012.

J.S. West points to this as proof that its cages are big enough. Mr.
Benson says the cages are actually too big—that there is wasted space.
Despite their more spacious digs, the hens just cluster together most
of the time, Mr. Benson said.

The company is reluctant to renovate all 15 of the barns it maintains
around the state, housing a total of 1.8 million hens, until it knows
for sure the new system is going to be deemed compliant.

Mr. Pacelle's organization regularly exposes animal cruelty through
informants and photographic evidence from puppy mills, dog-fighting
facilities, and more. He says he's prepared to do the same when it
comes to California egg producers who continue to house their hens in
illegal cages come 2015. Violators of the new law can be prosecuted
with a $1,000 fine or a 180-day jail sentence.

John Lewis Jr., president of Farmer John Eggs in Bakersfield, says he
doesn't know what to do with his small, family-run company's 600,000
hens. He doesn't want to put them in a cage-free environment because,
he says, they would be running around in their own feces and he would
have to feed them antibiotics.

Plus, when they are on the ground, he said, "If something scares them,
they all run into a corner and pile on top of each other and suffocate
very quickly."

There's also a pecking order to account for, he says. In cages, he can
group little hens with little hens to keep big hens from killing them.
Not so in a cage-free environment, he says.

But he doesn't want to put them in enriched colony systems, either.
His family can't afford investing in a system that may end up being
unacceptable.

Ultimately, J.S. West's Mr. Benson says, hens are simple creatures and
don't need much to be happy.

"It's very difficult to underestimate the intelligence of a chicken," he said.


Using Pacelle as a measuring stick, hens are smarter then he and his emotional coleagues.
_________________________

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#2116935 - 08/24/10 05:43 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Hupurest
Unregistered


ha ha. I hope no one send those clowns eggs...

stupid morons....
they cut off water to produce farms, are ending eggs....
hopefully, they put themselves out of food and water and shrivel up and die.

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#2116964 - 08/24/10 06:03 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
BuckNE
Unregistered


I'm hoping nobody ships to them and when they are paying $10 a dozen for eggs and pitching a conniption fit the rest of us can sit back and laugh at them for being California Stupid.

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#2117172 - 08/24/10 08:11 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/24/10 08:11 PM)
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#2117327 - 08/24/10 09:34 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
BuckNE
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote. They almost got the public land trapping issue on the ballot in Montana. Didn't have quite enough signatures on the petition, but it was too close for comfort.

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#2117603 - 08/25/10 07:01 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: BuckNE
Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote. They almost got the public land trapping issue on the ballot in Montana. Didn't have quite enough signatures on the petition, but it was too close for comfort.



When such things happen the folks who have evolved into the best possible managers of domesticated & wildlife animals plus the veternarians who made a career of raising healthy animals get pushed aside by emotionally driven folks that have NO concept of animal husbandry.
_________________________

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#2117622 - 08/25/10 07:22 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 15
Loc: St Louis, MO
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!
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#2117632 - 08/25/10 07:29 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 9569
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!


I've been on a lot of commercial chicken farms. When I was in high school the FFA used to earn money by catching chickens and loading them on trucks. I never saw a single cage, the chickens were raised on the floors of very large sheds. There were huge flocks, but they were free to walk around, warm and had plenty of food and water.

Do you believe everything Pacelle says?


Edited by Ole Hawkeye (08/25/10 07:30 AM)
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It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

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#2117655 - 08/25/10 07:50 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Tsarevna Offline
"Gerty"

Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4322
Loc: Oregon
Why did Arnold sign the bill anyway? confused
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#2117678 - 08/25/10 08:35 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 15
Loc: St Louis, MO
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.
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#2117691 - 08/25/10 08:52 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 9569
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side,


Well then it shouldn't be hard for you to go through Mira's posts and give us an example of a distortion that he has posted, should it?

We already know H$U$ and Pacelle, that you seem to think so highly of, has never distorted the truth.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

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#2117699 - 08/25/10 09:00 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.


I didn't write the article Aleman but I do know that Wayne Pacelle has stated publically that he hopes to end the domestication of animals in one generation. Making stuff to expensive to buy and to raise is the path he has chosen. I also know that Wayne Pacelle stated publically that the H$U$ most likely hired him because he is good at making stuff up. I also know Veternarians questioned on H$U$ propaganda feel farmers & ranchers are in tune with animal husbandry while H$U$ is not.
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#2117707 - 08/25/10 09:04 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.



The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengence is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use a evil enterprise if folks make money from it.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

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#2117710 - 08/25/10 09:10 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!


I've been on a lot of commercial chicken farms. When I was in high school the FFA used to earn money by catching chickens and loading them on trucks. I never saw a single cage, the chickens were raised on the floors of very large sheds. There were huge flocks, but they were free to walk around, warm and had plenty of food and water.

Do you believe everything Pacelle says?



And once they are maintained in that open barn concept as meat hens Pacelle and company attack those farmers for the debeaking process in the hopes of ending the open space application of such operations. Yet we know that debeaking is needed because chicks and hens do attack and kill their mates on a regular bases.
_________________________

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#2117712 - 08/25/10 09:13 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 9569
Loc: Oregon
Aleman, I just reviewed some of your past posts. Your building quite a track record of defending AR and putting livestock producers in a bad light. Do you have an agenda?
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

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#2117726 - 08/25/10 09:23 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Quote:
I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side,


Well then it shouldn't be hard for you to go through Mira's posts and give us an example of a distortion that he has posted, should it?

We already know H$U$ and Pacelle, that you seem to think so highly of, has never distorted the truth.


What Aleman classes as vengence is my ability to point out fallacies within Wayne's propaganda and point out that his game plan is to end all animal husbandry in wildlife or domestic managent of animals. Thanks for noting that Aleman made an Ad Homiem attack without one iota of proof or supportive commentary which I could answer to, Hawkeye.



Aleman might class those factors as vengeful distortion but the truth is the egg folk had to spend 3 million dollars on H$U$ schemes. Yet Pacelle is still not supportive because his plan is to end domestication of hens and make them to expensive for farmers to raise & consumers not as likely to buy dairy and egg products due to increased costs.

As for free range. Overall that is the worst science that could be offered to feed 6.5 billion people. Harder to control disease & more likely to add most polluant values back into our rivers, lakes & streams as those billions of hens run free range instead of controlled environments of large chicken barns.
_________________________

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#2117728 - 08/25/10 09:25 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Aleman, I just reviewed some of your past posts. Your building quite a track record of defending AR and putting livestock producers in a bad light. Do you have an agenda?



He certainly never did much more than distort the issue and offer an adhomiem attack with no supportive debate that could be challenged.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

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#2117741 - 08/25/10 09:35 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 2489
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Hello Hawkeye. You seem to be onto something there. Notice what he had to say about some condemnation points I made about Ruckus.

Originally Posted By: Aleman http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2112391
Mira,
When you argue a point, try to use logic in your arguement.

[color:#000099]"Actually these self righteous wing nuts thrive on hate mongering THE people who use the earth to support life. They also feel they can build up themselves as super heroes by dragging everyone else through the mud & slime."

This says nothing to prove anything, except you think you can convince others by name calling. Ain't saying these people are right, just saying your showing how stupid you are.
[/color]

The hit and run ad homiem purveyor never did answer this post which I made in pointing out why I have a problem with folks making a living off animal use being hate mongered by folks like ruckus..



I made a obvious point in my statement regarding the reason ruckus do hate monger folks making economic gain on this planet. For that effort you indicate I am stupid and in so doing without any counter debate, you have done what you accused me of. In fact you even went so far as to make the remark that you ain't saying these people are right but that I am stupid for making the point that they are showing themselves to be self righteous hypocrits. In fact their use of the internet in offering their game plan shows how selectively hypocritical they are.


If he wishes to appear reasonable maybe he should do better then he has in these two cases.


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/25/10 09:39 AM)
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#2117768 - 08/25/10 09:53 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 9569
Loc: Oregon
Aleman also said;

Quote:
Worms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can be rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.


Well, since you worked for the Forest service yu must be aware that each area is alloted no more cow calf pairs than the land will support, and there is usually several water sourced on each allotment. The land is not overgrazed and abused.

Why in the world should a rancher buy you a beer? And he did pay more of your salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City. If you didn't know that the ranchers pay the government per head per day for grazing rights, you either don't know as much as you want us to think you do, or you are passing mis-information.

Once again, I will ask, what's your agenda?
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It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

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#2117797 - 08/25/10 10:05 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 9569
Loc: Oregon
And then there was this little gem from Aleman;
Quote:
Might explain a few of them, but to lump all members of PETA and HSUS into this disorder is total lunacy. Just like saying all trappers are masochists.


Total lunacy? No, I can lump them all together, they all want to take my right to hunt and trap away from me. Don't they lump all of us together?
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