j lord wrote... cant see where a coyote or fox becomes a digger because the parent yote showed them a trap. associating danger with a smell maybe, but not an object in the ground

I have seen absolute proof that that happened at least one time in my experiences. I was trapping large sand pits and could see by the tracks in the sand that the Mother coyote partially uncovered the trap and would then bring the pups up to a set and then turn and run, bring them back, run again and repeat the procedure several times. This was with every trap set in the sand pit. I would assume that the Mother coyote had seen at least one pup caught in a trap earlier. For benefit of those who never trapped during the Summer months, Mother coyote many times pick up and move the whole remaining liter right out of the area when one or more pups are caught first.

j lord also wrote...with Asa catching one with a paw missing and the belief it was due to a trap, helps prove that the coyote didnt "learn" that traps are dangerous, or even associated the hole, loose dirt with danger.

Several years ago I had this coyote that would start back of the trap a few feet and carefully dig with one or two toenails until it got up to the trap and exposed and make a tear in the waxed paper covering. I placed a trap back of the first trap and he carefully exposed that one too along with the original trap leaving a tear in the waxed paper. Several days this went on every day so I took the original trap and set it so hair trigger that a breath of air would spring it. It worked, ther sat the 'yote the next morning, an old scruffy snaggle toothed one with one paw missing completely and toes off two other paws. Having set hair trigger he almost managed to escape again because of anothr toe tip hold, just lucky to get there in time to see him. So when one assumes a truly educated coyote would always avoid sets completely I assure you that isn't always the case as evidenced by this incident. Why uncovering traps day after day would be so important to him and some other canines we may never have an inkling.

I was thinking of this thread and then I remembered PSB's video of the fox that dug the trap completely out of the bed. Then the video started again and that fox was in a perfect pad catch. Curiosity got the "cat" I guess, but without that video the trapper would've assured himself that he was good and not that the fox was stupid. This reaffirms my theory that we trappers, trying to understand what the animal is "thinking" in human terms, will almost never mesh. Most animals are curious, but have survival instincts (learned and conditioned) that are probably inconcievable to us human.
The most inportant thing to animals are safety, food and reproduction, each taking a different priority based on the time of the year.

WoW MaN I need some more DiTcH weed!!!!

Was I that far out there Cattrax?

Nope not you at all!

Whew! Must be I learned something after all. Quick, better tell the ole' lady, she ain't gonna believe it.

I don't agree. The moma would have had to show the pups EVERY piece of steel in the area. I don't believe they can reason between a trap and a buried fence post or wire. It sounds like there are other issues going on in those situations.

Often we see things and interpret them to what we want them to be and not what they really are.

Asa, your dad was on the cutting edge of ideas and tactics in his day. Today,people seem to think in a rut. I've trapped and taken instruction in 13 states for 35yrs. One thing I've learned about coyotes is they are all the same but different!

Folks, get out of your ruts and enjoy.

Not saying it's ever too late to learn but after taking instruction in 13 states for 35 yrs. you are asking about set locations and talking about instructional videos/books in your other posts???

My believe is this,it was last January when the ground was hard and I feel the trap was a little tipy as JLord said. But also,I was using wax paper and had several uncovered traps, so that could have been crows also.I am going to poly fill this year. All of my canine traps were stored in a plastic tote so I can't believe that it was contamination. There are some interesting theories though. I know several say that coyotes can't smell that trap over what is coming out of the hole like Bob Wendt stated. They were sets with a fresh dirt pattern also. When I made a new set in a corn stubble field and blended it in, I connected the next day. So I find it hard to believe it was contamination. How about lures? The set that connected was with fox lure and pee and the others were with coyote lure and coyote pee that were dug up. Does most all coyote lures cause a digging and rolling response and could have that been the culprit?

My Dad in his "cutting edge of ideas and tactics" must have thought in a rut too, he experienced all of the same or similar things I have and spoke of them all of the time. Personally, from 60 years on the trapline I believe all animal species have more intelligence (for lack of a better word) than many trappers give them credit for. Asa

I don't claim to know more or even consider myself the caliber trapper as Asa or his Dad. But,IMO trappers give animals WAY too much credit to think and reason as humans do.

Thanks for the kind words concerning myself and Dad!
Where we differ is that I don't think trappers or people in general give animals enough credit for thier abilities to reason, learn quickly, retain experiences, etc. I surely don't think that they can reason like humans or the family dogs would all be opening doors and running in and out of the house and maybe driving off in the family car. But, to call them stupid, 60 years experience has taught me differently. Animals, especially coyotes or any canine most all have difference levels of intelligence, reasoning and other abilities and most have varying personalities from timid to agressive, pleasant to ferocious, etc. I have owned several Labrador Retrievers and all of them varied greatly in thier abilities to learn and retain, reason, etc. The one I have now is way more intelligent and shows a greater degree of reasoning power than any of the others. All were rasied from puppies so life's experiences and conditioning has been exactly the same so one can't explain away the differences because of conditioning, food supply, overpopulation, regional differences and all of the other possibilities of wild animals. Asa

I do believe if you pinch ones' toes that escapes and you continue to use the same type of sets in a given area that you have educated that coyote to associate the dirt pattern or type of lure to make him wary next time.There is proof by many of that.

Very Well put Asa.....i agree with you alot on those points.

Diggers

Coyotes do dig under certain circumstances could be smells, just out of curiosity, poorly bedded traps etc. Years ago I raised a coyote pup and kept it for many years, he taught me more about behavior than I could ever imagine. I watch him several times rake away ever so slightly at fresh dirt, just barely scratching the surface. He continued till he had a decent size hole. With that said he never had a mother to show him right from wrong as I raised him from a very small pup.

I know Asa has spoke several times about watching coyotes and the things he has learned, I too have taken a new outlook on the way I trap trying to understand the animals next move.

Whether using screen, wax paper or polyfill they all have there place according to the soil type/conditions. Where I trap around the home place there is nothing but white sugar sand. Fresh dirt means there will be some investigation by whatever passes by. Grey fox can and do deal me misery and I have just make adjustments based on my experience.

Some say the coyote is a dumb predictable animal........some don't

Never say never when dealing with Canis latrans, he'll make you eat your words everytime.

Good advice Billfrank.

EVERYTIME!

Bill Frank wrote...Never say never when dealing with Canis latrans, he'll make you eat your words everytime.

Yes indeed! Asa

I think we get a lot of "digger" canines that are digging at the hole and hook the trap out of the bed. I think we catch a lot that way too when they rake their paw over the pattern and get caught by a toe or two. PSB's video was good proof of this.

Guys that use pan tension think they have less snapped traps because they are more committed but I think the ratio of snapped traps goes down because the trap does not go off due to haphazard digging at the attractor.

Thanks Bill Frank. I put back the ground that is at hand while canine trapping versus carrying in dirt and agree that sifted dirt over a set in a sandy soil would stick out like a sore thumb.

Not trying to blame trappers at all. It very well could have been a broken trap or anchor or whatever else. The way the foot was severed and healed it was no doubt a trap. I called it the way I saw it at the time. It could have tripped heading across the road and got its foot run over for all I know. Just my assumption, not jumping to conclusions.