I heard thru the grapevine today...........

A NCWRC certified buiz run a call on a tested positive for rabies exposure call, did a inspection, charged the homeowner, and told them they would be back in September to do the job.

The homeowner, father and husband blew a gasket !

Interesting!

That is interesting.

I know I can get the permit to proceed with the right documentation in like 20 minutes and even closer if I am around a fax machine.

People before animals.

Robb same here. Two years ago the DNR denied everything unless there was a legitimate exposure risk and to verify that required the NWCO to contact Social circle AND Social Circle would contact the homeowner (aproximately 48hour turnaround). Last year we might as well not have had a blackout season, not a single denial. This year is running much smoother with a proper balance and faster turnaround.

Clearly the NWCO was not using both sides of his brain and whenever presented with a situation it pays to communicate a concern with your DNR types and seek guidance and let them deny such a action and not make the decision on your own.

The local Health Department needs to verify,document, and notify the local state biologist and situations like this move pretty quickly and make everyone look good.

Absolutely. I have even seen the PHD "evict" the homeowners in this type of situation while the problem is dealt with. Homeowners insurance would then cover motel costs until they could return. This stuff gets serious.... and regardless of how the wildlife regs are designed.... when public health is threatened there are special circumstances.

Does one positive bat mean the whole colony could be infected?

One may never know without lab results on each animal.

Rabies is spread by the saliva . These bats live in colonies and have a tendency to cluster in groups. A rabid bat from a particular colony may indicate others with rabies.

This is a call for your health dept.

I wouldn't want to wait three months either. This situation must have happened before. What's SOP?

Would you do an exclusion and seal or trap,euthanize and seal?
I'm thinking that if they were excluded they would move elsewhere and possibly spread the disease.

I agree fully Dave.

What's SOP ?

I would hope the state would insist on trapping versus exclusion. Exclusion is the law here however, common sense should however prevail in the permit & planning stages.

I hope I never have to make this decision but here in MT I can do anything I want,we have no bat laws. Ethics keeps me from doing bat work from June till early August.

There is also evidence to support an airborne rabies connection.

BigBob, I heard that too, but put me down as a Doubting Thomas on this one!

Not to dismis the theory Bob, but havent thoses incidences been centered around cave explorers ?

I dunno.......just what I heard

A GOOGLE search for bat cave rabies will bring up some interesting documents. One of which is found at http://bvs.panaftosa.org.br/textoc/WHO_LabTec_cap7_AirborneRabies.pdf There are more. And the CDC also has some information on the subject. One link is http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/rr/rr57e507.pdf - One quote from it reads
"Two cases of rabies have been attributed to probable aerosol exposures in laboratories, and two cases of rabies have been attributed to possible airborne exposures in caves containing millions of free-tailed bats (Tadarida brasiliensis) in the Southwest. However, alternative infection routes cannot be discounted (105–109). Similar airborne incidents have not occurred in approximately 25 years, probably because of
elevated awareness of such risks resulting in increased use of appropriate preventive measures."
And, of course there are more.
Yes, airborne transmission may be possible. However, a lightning strike is much more probable!

Folks- can you please post links to some of your reference material? We get a lot of "less than factual" information posted on this forum.

EDIT: Fixed the link- I think.

No , I cant.......but my info came straight from the state vets mouth in Raleigh

You are welcome to call him to verify

Caving and crawling around in an attic is pretty close to the same thing.

Buzzard-
I got a call from a guy last week that had found a bat on the floor of his home. He had taken it to the Health Department for testing. The report came back POSITIVE. He called me for an inspection and advice on what he should do now. I told him to immediately contact his family doctor and report the possible exposure to him. I further told him that if his doctor did not recommend post exposure prophylaxis he should get a second opinion and should also contact the State Health Department. His doctor initially told him that since no one had been bit or touched the animal that no treatment was recommended. He told the doctor what I had said. The doctor finally conducted some research and ended up recommending the prophylaxis. Now the whole family and a few overnight guests are receiving the series. I sometimes find it hard to believe how much some Md's and Veterinarians are ignorant about the protocol for potential rabies exposure.

Ron,

Couple years ago I got involved with a tested positive for rabies bat in a home. I went to the hospital for a booster and they told me I didn't need one. Had to call the health department director who is a good friend to have them call the hospital to give me the freakin booster shots.

yep, a lot of MD's and hospitals don't know diddly squat.

Buzzard, I have a really good doctor, who is also a customer. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if everyone on this site knew more about rabies than he does.

I gotta grand that says your correct........double or nuthin anyone ?

Not trying to turn this into a doctor-bashing thread..... but most cases of Histoplasmosis are mis-diagnosed. Victims end up in the hospital REALLY SICK before enough testing is done to determine what they have. Typically diagnosed as a flu.

Okay.... back to the original direction of the thread. Listened to a 30 minute segment on KTRS St. Louis 550 AM today, and the host had a story about he and his wife finding a bat (or 2) in their home a couple nights ago. One guest was the safety director for STL public health.... she plugged their "take care of removing a bat in the house" service, along with their phone number. NEVER mentioned that those people should have their homes inspected. Next, a top pest control company owner.... says most bats in homes probably flew in an open door when the owners were bringing in groceries or had the door open for a minute. And we wonder why people have no idea what to do??? The host was left with the impression that since he has an old home, he will have to live with bats forever. Amazing.

Does health insurance ever cover pre-exposure shots?

Same here in Maine as well.

Pretty good info.

One thing I havent seen written on this post is this.I fully understand the concern and or feel the need to evict a colony or a maternal colony during pup rearing time. However it may be apparent that some, all or many dont fully understand what the juveniles do once the female doesnt return to the roost site to nurse the young 12-24 hours after exclusion has taken place.

Meaning, depending on the maturity (age) of the juvenile bats, if they are very mobile at the point of exclusion, just new borns a week or less old,or mid way thru their developmental stages.If the pups are older and the adult fails to return the pups will begin a search for the female to nurse.

If they are within a week or less in maturity the pups will most likey perish without incident in the roost area as a result of limited mobility due to age and dehydration.However, if the maturity of the pups is two weeks or greater they are quite mobile now and crawl very efficiently.

Therefore the falsehood of thinking the exposure threat of the adults has been removed is now short lived.

I have seen the result of maternal bat colony evictions performed during different phases of pup development over my years in business. Consumers attempting to do their own work via internet information, a result of taking advice from another individual and even some evictions done by so called professionals in the field that obviously had little bat work knowledge.

The exodus of the pups at the age that allows their movements into various areas of the living space is a potential high risk situation. Whether in the attic space, soffit area, ceiling areas, wall voids or even those roosting in chimneys can potentially make entry into living spaces in many such circumstances.

If a positive case of rabies is establilshed from a specific bat and colony site the chances of others is very possible and likely.Understanding that bats are a very social creature and they are self grooming creatures as well as grooming other bats and their pups.

Passing the virus to other bats throught their saliva via grooming, mating or general social interaction and transmitting the virus to their bats pup(s) if it is in fact a female is very possible.

Meaning now the abandoned pups and the pup(s) of the infected bat are now moving around and instinctively following air flow areas. Some or many pups finding breaches in the ceiling, walls, baseboards and basement exterior and interior wall void areas.

Now you have created a potential risk by exposing the same family to yet another potential bat problem. My point is, there is not a definitive end to the potential problem once the maternal adults are excluded.

I have found bat pups in shoes, waders,laundry baskets,jacket pockets,random clothing found on the floor, in beds,sofas and chairs to name a few situations.These young mobile bats have teeth and can bite just out of shear reaction or defensive behavior. Kids pick them up out of curiosity, dogs find interest and cats as well not to mention the stressing of the human occupants. It is the ones that you dont expect that cause the exposure issues with everyone.

If forced through circumstances to do a mid season exclusion I explain the situation to the client. What may occur as a result of the exclusion during this time period. They must sign off on the understanding of my concerns and if they insist upon pursuing the project I try to protect myself as a result of such an incident occuring as this could be a potential high risk liability situation.

Even with such anticipated problems and attempting to protect my business, with the law and lawyers as we have today most likely the consumers could still seek some type of settlement if they felt they would like to pursue the matter.

This topic has been discussed in the past and I failed to share my experience and thoughts. Now that I have spoken my peace you can all take it with a grain of salt and hopefully you will proceed and your work will be without issue when doing maternal exclusions.

Great posts guys.


Troy

Thank you! I much prefer an interior sealing to prevent entry into the living area during the pup rearing season. Even without eviction of the adults I have seen many pups seeking cooler areas; usually outside the main entrance. Sometimes folks do not want to wait though. In those instances, I do the same as you said.

I still cannot find any reliable reference to the increased incidence of rabies being transmitted to other members of a colony from which a rabid bat was identified. Can you provide any information (links) on this subject?

I was wondering if you guys were ever going to get to it.....

As far as what was said earlier about aerosol exposure to rabies, it would take a tremendous bat population to produce the amount of aerosolized amount of saliva and keep it in such an enclosed area that would overwhelm the victim. With the vents and air flow in an attic, I doubt there would be the combination of a large population and lack of air flow in a home situation like that could be in a cave to produce the aerosol exposure. I'm not saying it's impossible, but very unlikely.

I dont know if aerobic virus transfer is a real fact or not. However I have heard of strong evidence of the potential if the concentration is great enough in volume in an enclosed close proximity area.

As far as animal to animal transfer in a colony that is a fact as a result of direct transmission contact.