I like Bill Franks fine example!
Whether a bait is beneficial probably depends upon the nature of the formulation of a lure being used down the hole. Holes emitting an odor in my opinion represent something edible buried there. A straight gland lure down the hole would not represent something edible. If those glands were added to a food base then it would make the hole and digging seem natural and give more reason for a canine to want to dig it up and expose it. So, gland lure in combination with bait or a one application food/gland lure will get the same response. Personally, I havent't used bait in combination with any lure for 30 years and don't believe it cost me one animal. For 25 years before that I did use baits during Summer trapping for bounty only because in the Summer ants, grasshoppers and locusts would eat a small gob of lure quickly and it took them some time to devour 1" meat cubes.
And yes Calvin, once you add Dobbins bait solution to meat cubes you have made it a food lure. No difference than if one ground the meat, added the solution, added a thickener and called it a paste lure!!!
If plain baits worked as well as prepared lures and baits then scores of lure/bait makers couldn't have survived selling expensive little bottles of lure/bait, some for as long as 85 consecutive years. This would have been especially true during the 1920's and 30's depression years when poor country folk trappers had to come up with a dollar for a 1 oz bottle of lure, they never would have did it had bait been working satisfactory for them. Many of the old time bounty wolfers I was raised around made thier own combination bait lures, a favorite was venison or fish soaked in castor, asafoedita, honey, urine and the contents of gall bladders. Again, they took thier baits and made them lures! Asa

great post guys as you Ohio Andy I was thinking the same thing bait and lure always used one but a lot on here like Mark June and several others big timers say yotes like more than one smell so was going to play around with it this year keep em coming guys

andy we talked about my thoughts on this but i'll post what i mentioned to you....

on the bait, very seldom will i use bait. the main reasons, are here in the south food isn't a problem for predators, they can get a meal just about anytime. so with that in mind, there are only two other things on a predators mind other than food, control over its home range (intruders, competition), and a sexual companion. if a yote, cat, fox is full and they smell food coming out of a hole and they think "oh i'll just get it another time" (i know yotes and fox are opportunistic, so its not an always), and may just sniff and pass the set on by. BUT, you put a gland lure of competition, or possible mate and/or a curiousity lure, even with a full stomach they will still have to invesitgate the set just out of curiousity or rage. in the north, or mountain regions, i've talked to trappers that say you just about have to use bait. i find it hard to believe "you have to" but i haven't trapped out there yet so i can't dispute it, lol. it makes sense tho; that bait alone, as long as the smell is loud enough, will entice a predator in colder climates where food may not be as abundant.

as far as the competition aspect of it, i use a red fox gland lure for the most part. in my mind, this creates more aggrevation for a coyote because they despise the red. it seems they have to check out the smell of a red fox.

wells theres my .02.

After the snow flies, I think you get alot better responses to bait in a dirthole. Canines are looking for food because the availability just isn't there. There's a definate change in diet during the colder months. Asa's line of "ALL CALL LURES" seems to have all the right stuff in it for late season trapping. Although, I have to admit, I didn't think it was strong enough for late season/below zero trapping i was soon proven wrong.

Thanks Canine Slayer for adding another dimension to this.
This could be a two parter... early season and late season when considering bait use.

Is it November 10th yet?

I agree with the early and late season bait use idea. Where I live, Fall is a time of plenty. Urine and curiousity lures work well. By early December, heck, this year it was still early November, our ground is covered in a foot of snow. Now is when food gets scarce and the canines are always hunting.

I prefer using whole deer(roadkill)and beaver carcusses. Make a few sets in the surrounding area of each carcuss.

Now Beachcomber13, i would call that a bait station, not necessarily baiting the hole on a dirthole... sorry to split hairs. When making your sets around the bait station, do you bait the hole if it is a dirt hole set or do you mainly use flat sets and scent posts?

When I used to live market trap, I used lots of bait in what I call, a 'sucker set".

I use bait, because I make and have lots of it...and I pre-bait at times.

Like Billfrank, I have caught furbears with an empty hole by being on location and having sight appeal!

Thats the way i roll!

I've only ever used homemade lure, as we are not allowed to use exposed bait in Nevada, and to me, bait that is hidden from sight just becomes lure anyways cause all it is is a smell eminating from a certain spot, and if you've done things right the coyote will be wearing a bracelett before he gets a chance to mess around and get it uncovered.

I do not use "prepared bait" at dirt hole sets for red fox. I had always thought and concluded that a bait innoculated with an assortment of ingredients in the formulation essentially made it a lure as opposed to a possible food source, no matter the base for it, masking the natural flavor that might be inviting. I had always kind of wondered about this, and Asa clarified it for me.

On the other hand, when using fresh, frozen mice on occasion in a dirt hole set made in a hay stubble field, then it was "bait."

My mentor in the early 1950's never used prepared bait as such, only a minimal assortment of liquid lures - almost always a gland based lure in conjunction with a "sweet" lure that I have struggled to duplicate. The only bait Mark ever used was a dead mouse once in awhile.

I might add, Mark showed me how to make dirt hole variations with nothing more than fresh dirt as the main attractant and "lure," standing alone.

A most interesting and refreshing thread. I continue to never cease learning from the generosity in the shared experiences by members here. Thank you.

Jonathan

Jonathan,
You mentioned one of the main attractants was nothing more than the fresh dirt. Maybe a little off topic but do you like a messy dirt pattern or a neat one? What have you found to be most effective if you have used both?
Denny

Denny, Both lured and plain sets are on the "messy" side of the scale. After bedding and sifting, the neat stage, I made a little claw tool out of a small, 3-tined frog spear. I drag dirt out of the hole to junk it up to make it appear as natural as possible. Nothing fancy - as crude looking as I can make it.

Jonathan

We all know there is no" ONE WAY " to make dirt holes that will catch canines.That being said,I believe that the canine will work the set longer if there is bait in the hole,but NO urine on the backing.It has been my experience that when a fox buries his food for later,he DOES NOT urinate on the area.When he comes back and digs up his cache,THEN he will urinate on the area.So to me,if the fox finds a dirt hole with urine on it,that tells him that there WAS food there,but theres not now.He will still come in to investigate,and a lot of people will say that thats all you need.But I like to have them there as long as possible,to increase my chance of a catch.Thats why I also like double dirt holes.One with bait,and one with lure.It keeps them there that much longer.MANY GOOD canine trappers will not agree with me,but this is what works for me.

Personally from my experiences, I think urine is always an added asset at a dirthole set or any set. Urine is not necessary by any means but one more calling for the canine to focus on and possibly serve as a suspicion remover. I know from experience and testing that urine can not compromise the set in any way. Asa

Like I said"MANY GOOD canine trappers will not agree with me".And it didnt take long. LOL But I can say that ,in addition to lure or bait in the hole, I also used to put urine on the backing,and since stoping this practice,MY catch rate has increased.So,whatever works for someone is the way for them to go.I will also say that I am certianly not above trying something new!Thats how we learn,and thats what I like about T-MAN.

Upstate, When you have faculty members here of the caliber of Asa Lenon's and others, you know that Trapperman University is a real school. I know a bunch more about this combination of choices than I did two days ago.

Jonathan

Jonathan:: I couldnt agree more.I love threads like this and try to "soak it all up" LOL

This thread turned into what i had hoped it would. As with anything, there really is no right or wrong way. Even BillFrank said he does not use bait at 80% of his sets. What about the other 20%? Why only 20%? It works for him and his experience tells him when and where to use bait or not.

There are some really good trappers, or as Jonathan says, faculty members, that use different methods to acheive the same goal of a foot squarely on the trap pan. That leaves us students to learn what we can from the faculty and apply that to our own experiences in the field.

One thing that i have learned from this thread is that i need to keep better notes on my sets and lure / bait / urine usage. Study the notes and track the results and in the end, i may become a better trapper.

Again thank you to those who have shared their knowledge and experiences with those of us still learning, which should be all of us!

I think one can overdo urine at sets by spraying or saturating sets creating an unnatural appearing situation and perhaps cause a set avoidance. When I apply urine it is only a small squirt on the backing that would be the equivalent amount a fox or coyote would mark a spot with. Asa