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Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390316
10/27/12 03:00 AM
10/27/12 03:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 172
Kotzebue AK
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nolluk Offline
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Kotzebue AK
ouch. ambler is where my wife is from and it's 420+ roundtrip and thats an hour with a caravan. only going to get worse i'd guess.


Bring on cold weather,
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390317
10/27/12 03:05 AM
10/27/12 03:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
Same here its over $600 Round trip and we have to travel 20 miles to catch the jet ERA has us by the short hairs.

And Len I would say you guys need more hunting pressure in Homer if its that browsed like you say perhaps you need to thin them and alow more guiding perhaps a cow/calf hunt

Like I said we have Alot of willow thay also eat cottonwood and summer they eat swamp plants and we have plenty of swamp here.

I also belive all the beaver cutting willow create moose feed because all the young shoots that pop out of the stump the next year the moose love them.

I dont see any dead moose and see no reason to panic about it yet, these moose have hard crusty snow that they can walk on so they are not stuck in one area they use the frozen river and snowmachine trails to travel to differant areas to feed all winter.

That is why we have such a high rate of calf twins and triplets these moose have it made and are fat..no need to call in the airforce yet.

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390318
10/27/12 03:13 AM
10/27/12 03:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,255
Homer, Alaska
Family Trapper Offline
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Homer, Alaska
I agree. I it is a moose Shangri-La. But wow where will it end up. Summer grounds are never the governing factor for ungulates. I just can't see it not ending in some sort of poor fate at some point. The exponential growth the last 5 years is amazing. 5 more hmm We will see I guess.

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390320
10/27/12 03:18 AM
10/27/12 03:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
In the winter alot of them just head out on the river and hit the first island they come too ..its solid willow and perfect size for browse.

I would say the spring floods will keep the numbers in check, as they do drownd alot I have seen that.

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: yukonjeff] #3390324
10/27/12 03:35 AM
10/27/12 03:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,638
Bethel, Alaska
fishermann222 Offline
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Bethel, Alaska
Originally Posted By: yukonjeff

That is why we have such a high rate of calf twins and triplets these moose have it made and are fat..no need to call in the airforce yet.



This rate is falling off as of the last survey done.


I survived the Tman crash of '06
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390329
10/27/12 04:14 AM
10/27/12 04:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,255
Homer, Alaska
Family Trapper Offline
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Homer, Alaska

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: nolluk] #3390650
10/27/12 10:51 AM
10/27/12 10:51 AM
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Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
Originally Posted By: nolluk
My turn?
I live in an area with a high caribou population. I work at the airport and see firsthand the operations of guides and transporters. Have you ever seen a dumpster of caribou? 2 pallets of meat stacked 3-4 feet high in 50 degree weather for 3 days? Anyone ever try to give you rotten meat? Ever see a sign "free meat" cause a guy got 5 caribou and a moose but didn't want to pay freight charges back where he came from? Note* he took the antlers! I can go on and on but I know ill be in the minority here because there are guides that will defend themselves and others. Another quick note that happened a few weeks ago the local police were given rotten meat from a client that ended up in a dumpster also. I overheard a cop telling the story at a local store. You might ask why this wasn't brought to troopers attention believe me it was. It makes no sense that all a person has to do is bring the meat to a hub in edible condition. What is done after is a grey area.
Ok. Now for the misconception that money is brought into the community. Guides and transporters pick their clients up at Alaska airlines and bring them to their base of operations. They sit on the ramp and wait for the aircraft that takes them to their destination. Tents food water are all provided for. Relax ive seen the everything these guys keep stocked in their buildings and shelters. When clients return they sit on the ramp and gather their belongings to be brought to Alaska airlines to check in. How do I know this? I work at the airport. Where is the money coming into the town? Tickets are bought from Alaska airlines. 4 out of 5 transporters are based in towns other than kotzebue. 1 based in kotzebue has 1 local pilot part time. Guides are not based in kotzebue. Fuel is bought from Crowley.
where is the money that is supposedly being brought in?
The last gripe I have is about the notion that with an airplane you get out where locals will not be affected by the actions of guides and transporters. Have you ever hunted the migration of caribou? You ever shoot a caribou out of a herd and have the next bunch an hour later take another rout because the herd that you shot one from leaves a scent going in another direction for them to follow? Imagine this.... 5 transporters dropping off a few hundred hunters in the path of these caribou and this not affecting the migration of the herd. Not only hunters but plane traffic all day long. Noatak kotzebue noorvik kiana selawik ambler shungnak and kobuk all rely on this migration for food. Depending on what the caribou do in a year some villages have a tough time getting meat. 2 years ago the migration went a northern route and everyone suffered from locals to guides and transporters. Locals didn't get the meat they needed and the guides and transporters had to burn more fuel to get hunters to the caribou. The moose population took a major hit that fall because people prefer moose over caribou. A friend of mine settled for a moose that fall after not getting caribou and said there were 26 sets of moose antlers up to the place he got a moose. After all we don't eat antlers.
Alrighty then. Let the mudslinging begin. Ive put a big bullseye on my chest so grimmer your best shot.



Yep, I have seen this happen. This appears to be the operating procedure of the the big operators and transporters. Smaller and ethical operators make a habit of either using the meat themselves or finding local people ahead of time who want it and do their best to take care of the meat.

Again my suggestion was that the local people run their own operation or work with an ethical operation. Or you can sit around and complain about some non-local people making all the money and wasting the meat. Me I like meat and I like money. Money that I worked my arse off for is even sweeter. A lot like trapping money.

Sorry this wasn't the attack you hoped for. smile


Who is John Galt?
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: Family Trapper] #3390682
10/27/12 11:12 AM
10/27/12 11:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
Originally Posted By: Family Trapper
This jumped in kind of late. Wrote it this afternoon and after the recent posts.
I will reedit this to address some of my feelings on keeping money in the villages.
My thought is that locals could gain from providing drop off packages and boat rentals for resident and non. Restricted to certain areas that the villages deem appropriate. Cut down on the competition and give some local employment and harvest some of the excess. Many residents would pay for drop off hunts if the equipment was supplied. It is not guiding. Other guys do this. Not sure of all the legalities but it is a thought.

There will still someday become an issue of carrying capacity. And I bet the lower reaches of the Yukon are getting there. There are far more alder than anything in the lower yukon area. Where are the concentrations of moose in the winter. Specific patchs of willow. You see concentrations of them where ever you fly over the willow patchs near the river bend and disturbed grounds some of the best. There is only so many willow tops to go around. There is always scattered moose. Always will be. But the willow patches take it in the tops in the concentrated areas. Come to Homer and look at what years of overgrazing did to the willow patches in the prime winter areas. Very apparent. Short stubble of a willow with ever available nibble taken off them every year.

The numbers are not there yet in the Mountain Village area and above. But their will come a day in the lower river, if it is not their yet when winter browse will be the deciding factor for a healthy herd. Be different if they had a place to go. Holy Cross moose can migrate up or down as they need. Where does a moose at the mouth of the Yukon go when it needs new habitat.
Much like the lynx populations. They have steadily grown for the last 15 years.
My theory
They also have no where to go. Bearing Sea, Tundra for miles and miles north and South. Or back up river. Plenty of food. Even with low hare numbers our rodent population is such that it could support any predator out there if they got hungry.
Doesn't seem to be a boom and bust. Just boom. at least for the last 12 years. No sign of a down turn yet.
Trappers seem to be keeping these numbers in check.
But moose. Only so many the villagers can take.
And yes no dead moose yet showing up to starvation.
And certainly not in your area Jeff but I do wonder about the Emmo Kotlik areas. When we might see some of it down the line.
Interesting article. Alaska Moose management-Science or Comic book biology
As he describes it moose left to fulfill the carrying capacity of an area live on the brink of disaster. It is far better to maintain the herd at 50 to 75 % Thus insuring extra food for those hard winters of cold and deep snow. Little wiggle room on a hard winter with little food. Moose die. Just like other animals. And that might be worth it to the local villagers in view of the alternative, Outside hunting pressure.
Hard decisions for both sides. But in the end. There will be dead moose one way or the other. Wolves, people, cold, starvation. What should we manage for. Many sides to that question. And to each his own.


There is a lot of misinformation and propaganda mixed in with that biology. Almost all the population objectives in the State have nothing to do with carrying capacity. They are a mix of numbers derived in a haphazard way. Some are way below carrying capacity, some may be well above. Hard to manage for carrying capacity when the only way to find out where that is to achieve it. Carrying capacity is ever changing, so chase that down too. crazy


Who is John Galt?
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390701
10/27/12 11:37 AM
10/27/12 11:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 528
Alaska Bristol Bay
UgashikBob Offline
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Alaska Bristol Bay
In the days we had caribou the sky ho's/airlines departed with everything but the gut piles. Same thing with the moose now. Some of the guides made an honest effort to locally distribute the meat but have also seen that abused. The hubs make some bucks but not much trickle down effect from there to villages in the hunting areas. Don't see anything that will change that as long as money is the driving force.

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390708
10/27/12 11:48 AM
10/27/12 11:48 AM
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Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
In much of Alaska habitat does not limit ungulate populations. Predation holds many populations at Low Levels. It was human predation that was limiting moose populations in the lower Yukon area. There are many lower 48 trained biologist that can't wrap their heads around this concept. I agree though the moose are healthy and in great shape when the predators kill them. smile


Who is John Galt?
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: Dirt] #3390724
10/27/12 12:05 PM
10/27/12 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,886
Bethel, AK
Kusko Offline
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Bethel, AK
Originally Posted By: Dirt
[quote=Kusko]Actually Jeff, for the number of people that live in our area, our moose are doing pretty darn good. We started with 77 moose in a stretch of river that went 200 miles. After 5 years of no hunting, we had 1000 moose.

I'm pretty sure this is impossible without a lot of dispersal into the area from somewhere else. That would be close to a 70% growth rate per year. The largest growth rate measured in Alaska (THAT I'M AWARE OF) was on the predator free and relatively snow free area of Kalgan Island. It was around 33%.



Ding ding ding....

There are so many moose in the lower Yukon and Togiak that they dispersed over here.

The count of 77 didn't count any tributaries. This was the main Kusko only. The guys around here would poach only the cows. If you peek at the moose circle, you will see what happens when the cows are killed.

I know that guide well too. Here is my case on that. If he can survive up there as a gussak for as long as he has, good for him. Now, being a guide and surviving, unreal. That place can be ROUGH.

One more thing, historically, the lower Yukon didn't have moose. They showed up like our caribou and stayed. People hunted them and nearly wiped them out. They put on a 6 year moratorium and they rebounded like crazy. That herd is growing by 1000 animals per year.


"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin." Linus Van Pelt

www.alaskafinandfur.com
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: fishermann222] #3390747
10/27/12 12:25 PM
10/27/12 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
Originally Posted By: fishermann222
Originally Posted By: yukonjeff

That is why we have such a high rate of calf twins and triplets these moose have it made and are fat..no need to call in the airforce yet.



This rate is falling off as of the last survey done.


I dont buy it ..I still see alot of twins and most survive to be adults since our preditors are few.

The lower Yukon always had moose..just not as many...people forget that this area was the last place to get stores and trading post and goods were unafordable much like they still are today.

You can not buy fresh meat in our store here its frozen only and expensive! and some old range cow from Cali or Seattle..people depend on the meat and needed to eat so moose numbers were low.

since the numbers have increased substantialy I would like to keep them high..screw what some college kid bioligist say..they dont know sqwat
like Bob said they screwed it up in his area I would rather they just stay out of this one, along with the sky ho's

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390767
10/27/12 12:43 PM
10/27/12 12:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,886
Bethel, AK
Kusko Offline
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Kusko  Offline
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Bethel, AK
Those same college kid biologist were the ones smart enough to put a moratorium on your area. Maybe they saw the potential that your moose population would expand...who knows??? smile


"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin." Linus Van Pelt

www.alaskafinandfur.com
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390769
10/27/12 12:44 PM
10/27/12 12:44 PM
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Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
It seems to me the local experts on moose management managed to virtually wipe them out. crazy


Who is John Galt?
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390777
10/27/12 12:58 PM
10/27/12 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
Do you realy think folks with no wildlife officers at all in our area actually quit hunting meat when FnG said you cant eat moose meat no more? are you kidding me?..lol

the population increase was due to moose migrating in from upriver and other areas where wolves and fires were driving them out.
plus stores and food stamps and oil money combined with high fish prices (ie $5. a lb some were making 100k a year) that relieved some of the pressure off the moose, as folks could now afford to eat from the stores.

It was not due to some snot nosed Bilogist from Seattle fresh out of college.

Dirt when the economy crashes and no more store bought goods we will see how long your moose last just like the elk, buffalo. the deer and waterfowl in the 48... when folks depended on them for food especialy during the depression


Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390785
10/27/12 01:01 PM
10/27/12 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,886
Bethel, AK
Kusko Offline
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Bethel, AK
Somebody must have stopped. They just don't grow that rapidly without human impact.


"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin." Linus Van Pelt

www.alaskafinandfur.com
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390802
10/27/12 01:19 PM
10/27/12 01:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
They didnt stop..it was just less pressure and the moose migrated in...just like they are doing now on the Kusko...they are not calving there way to huge increases like you are seeing. they are migrating in..most likely from the Yukon

some folks did stop hunting here and went upriver, where we were promply kicked off the lands and had to hunt here again.

like I said it was a combination of factors... I should be a Bioligist but first I would have to learn how to spell it smile

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: yukonjeff] #3390803
10/27/12 01:19 PM
10/27/12 01:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Dirt  Offline
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Armpit, ak
Originally Posted By: yukonjeff
Do you realy think folks with no wildlife officers at all in our area actually quit hunting meat when FnG said you cant eat moose meat no more? are you kidding me?..lol

the population increase was due to moose migrating in from upriver and other areas where wolves and fires were driving them out.
plus stores and food stamps and oil money combined with high fish prices (ie $5. a lb some were making 100k a year) that relieved some of the pressure off the moose, as folks could now afford to eat from the stores.

It was not due to some snot nosed Bilogist from Seattle fresh out of college.

Dirt when the economy crashes and no more store bought goods we will see how long your moose last just like the elk, buffalo. the deer and waterfowl in the 48... when folks depended on them for food especialy during the depression




I eat bear, so I'll be O.K. I might even eat a salmon if I have to. smile

You do realize earlier you claimed that the local community made a sacrifice in order for the moose population to rebound and now you claim no sacrifice was made. You need to clear this up. confused


Who is John Galt?
Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390812
10/27/12 01:34 PM
10/27/12 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,790
M.T.V. Alaska
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yukonjeff Offline
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M.T.V. Alaska
Yes I should clear that up...some sacraficed ....some didnt either way it was not so the guides could make huge money selling it off.

I am sure the bears will get ate up ..dont think folks will starve because they dont like bear meat,

I wouldnt eat your mushy salmon either smile

Re: The Almighty Alaskan Thread #6 [Re: white17] #3390832
10/27/12 01:51 PM
10/27/12 01:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
I don't think you realize we don't have too many folks. smile


Who is John Galt?
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